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AmericanFurryBoy

Does it stand for Racism? Or does it stand for proud heritage? Or even the American dream of overthrowing the Government when it doesnt serve the people anymore?
I have a black friend who flew this flagon his bike when biking to school. The admin saw it, and got real pissed. Were they right?

someone234

Racism or proud heritage?

It stands for both racism and proud heritage.

Neo-nazis are very proud of their heritage and also very racist.

Pogue

@someone234
I agree with that. 
People say that it's their heritage. And it is. 
However, their heritage is built on racism and is such racist. 

JimboShrimp

It's a flag of heritage and rightful separation that (unfortunately) served as a rally for some racists during the Civil War. The vast majority of volunteers to the Confederate army, for instance, weren't slave owners and never would be. They joined largely because they felt threatened by the cultural separation of the North and South, and how the North was legislating based on that difference.

The association of the flag with racist sentiment is a mistake that only serves to reduce the complexity of Confederate motivation and completely obscure the things they were completely within their rights to do.

SinaAria

The Confederate flag represents a movement based on racism and hatred. It represents a group of people who took arms against the US in support of slavery. In support of being able to OWN a human being. 
to anyone who would argue that this flag does not represent slavery I present a question that if answered will change my view:

Why was it, that when the southern commission for peace talks met with Lincoln to discuss the terms of surrender, their first and only wish was to be readmitted into the union in time to block the ratification of the thirteenth amendment?

someone234

@SinaAria You aren't wrong. The Confederates were fighting for their right to slavery.

Pogue

Slavery was mentioned in multiple states secession. Mississippi said, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery ..." The Confederate constitution said "No bill ... or law denying or impairing the right of property in ... slaves shall be passed."
Also, in 1861 the Confederate vice president gave a speech that said: " ... the negro is not equal to the white man ..."

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp

Nope

I think a better question is does the confederate flag represent racism because the confederate flag is a flag and does not care who you are. Also which confederate flag are we taking about? I don't think that a flag of a society that kept slaves represent slaves. When the civil war started The north was npt trying to destroy slavery. Some northern states kept slaves longer then the confederate states.

EmeryPearson

Does the Confederate flag symbolize racism? Yes.

This is basically undeniable, as the Confederacy stated that Racism was the reason it existed as a nation.

Fast forward to modernity, and racists groups still use it as their primary symbol. So I'd say it's meaning hasn't evolved much in the past century.

BaconToes

Like @Erfisflat in the other confederate flag debate, flags are subjective. You can decide what the flag represents. Certain people think it symbolizes bravery of Confederate soldiers, some people think of it a reminder of history and slavery, some people think of it as a racist symbol, some people just think it is... a flag.

Pogue

@BaconToes
A flag is made to symbolize a country. A country includes the society and the government/laws itself. As I previously stated above ...
Slavery was mentioned in multiple states secession. Mississippi said, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery ..." The Confederate constitution said "No bill ... or law denying or impairing the right of property in ... slaves shall be passed."
Also, in 1861 the Confederate vice president gave a speech that said: " ... the negro is not equal to the white man ..."

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp

BaconToes

@Pogue said

@BaconToes
A flag is made to symbolize a country. A country includes the society and the government/laws itself. As I previously stated above ...
Slavery was mentioned in multiple states secession. Mississippi said, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery ..." The Confederate constitution said "No bill ... or law denying or impairing the right of property in ... slaves shall be passed."
Also, in 1861 the Confederate vice president gave a speech that said: " ... the negro is not equal to the white man ..."

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp

Your point is...

Pogue

BaconToes said:

Like @Erfisflat in the other confederate flag debate, flags are objective. You can decide what the flag represents. Certain people think it symbolizes bravery of Confederate soldiers, some people think of it a reminder of history and slavery, some people think of it as a racist symbol, some people just think it is... a flag.

I think you mean subjective not objective. 
Subjective-based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
Objective-(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
If it was objective it would mean racism

BaconToes said:

@Pogue said

@BaconToes
A flag is made to symbolize a country. A country includes the society and the government/laws itself. As I previously stated above ...
Slavery was mentioned in multiple states secession. Mississippi said, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery ..." The Confederate constitution said "No bill ... or law denying or impairing the right of property in ... slaves shall be passed."
Also, in 1861 the Confederate vice president gave a speech that said: " ... the negro is not equal to the white man ..."

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp

Your point is...

Oh, sorry I did not clearly state my point. It is racist. 

Nope

EmeryPearson Why was my comment Irrelevant? Also what a flag represents based on the person because it is just a flag so saying it is basically undanible is not that true.
Also I still wan't to know what Confederate flag because they each represent something different to most people.

EmeryPearson

@Nope

"I think a better question is does the confederate flag represent racism because the confederate flag is a flag and does not care who you are:"

The Confederate Flag represents the confederacy. 

"Also which confederate flag are we taking about?"

Basically any 'stars and bars' style confederate flag outside the official flag used between 1861 – 1863. But I can only assume this was the original posters intention.

"I don't think that a flag of a society that kept slaves represent slaves."

The entire nation existed to preserve to slavery, as stated by the Confederacy.

"When the civil war started The north was npt trying to destroy slavery."

The North's motivations do not negate the South's motivation for war.

"Some northern states kept slaves longer then the confederate states."

This isn't exactly true, seeing slavery persisted in the South through Sharecropping and the Justice system.

"Also what a flag represents based on the person because it is just a flag so saying it is basically undanible is not that true."

The Flag represented the Confederacy, which existed to preserve slavery. If you can find evidence that it did not represent the confederacy, I'd say you have wiggle room here.

Nope

EmeryPearson
It can be argued that the Confederacy main motivation was to keep state rights which if the government abolishing slavery it would intrude on. I also mentioned the Northern states not being motivated to destroy slavery because it shows that the confederacy was not only trying to preserve slavery.

EmeryPearson

@Nope

"It can be argued that the Confederacy main motivation was to keep state rights which if the government abolishing slavery it would intrude on. "

It can be argued that the Union main motivation was to keep states rights which the enforcement of fugitive slave laws trampled.

"I also mentioned the Northern states not being motivated to destroy slavery because it shows that the confederacy was not only trying to preserve slavery."

The motivations of the North don't negate the motivations of the South. If the Union fought to maintain an elephant in congress, that wouldn't somehow make the fact the South fought to preserve slavery any less true.

joecavalry

People should be allowed to own, etc. the confederate flag due to it being part of the U.S.’s history.

Vaulk

I think if you can wear a Cuban Flag and claim that it's about your heritage and not about supporting Communism and the murder of God knows how many people then one can equally wear a Rebel Flag and claim that it's about your heritage and not about supporting Racism and hatred.

Erfisflat

Where I'm from, that flag is all over the place. Historical monuments and landmarks, on vehicles, some schools, tatoos, yards, etc. but it's not just white people that fly the flag. In Selma, which is about 2 hours away at a job that I worked on, the flag was also seen there in some places. I agree that the flag is subjective in nature, just as any flag is. I openly support anyone's right to fly or burn any flag.

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/photos-they-black-and-they-proud-the-confederate-flag/by06A6ywMrqi7mYP9A1jmO/

someone234

Erfisflat said:

Where I'm from, that flag is all over the place. Historical monuments and landmarks, on vehicles, some schools, tatoos, yards, etc. but it's not just white people that fly the flag. In Selma, which is about 2 hours away at a job that I worked on, the flag was also seen there in some places. I agree that the flag is subjective in nature, just as any flag is. I openly support anyone's right to fly or burn any flag.

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/photos-they-black-and-they-proud-the-confederate-flag/by06A6ywMrqi7mYP9A1jmO/

I am the opposite entirely.

I am an anti-fascist fascist. If you adorn a flag that I consider immoral or you burn a flag that represents what I love, I want to make you burn with the flag... I want to show you what a flag is and the respect you owe what it represents.

Erfisflat

someone234 said:

Erfisflat said:

Where I'm from, that flag is all over the place. Historical monuments and landmarks, on vehicles, some schools, tatoos, yards, etc. but it's not just white people that fly the flag. In Selma, which is about 2 hours away at a job that I worked on, the flag was also seen there in some places. I agree that the flag is subjective in nature, just as any flag is. I openly support anyone's right to fly or burn any flag.

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/photos-they-black-and-they-proud-the-confederate-flag/by06A6ywMrqi7mYP9A1jmO/

I am the opposite entirely.

I am an anti-fascist fascist. If you adorn a flag that I consider immoral or you burn a flag that represents what I love, I want to make you burn with the flag... I want to show you what a flag is and the respect you owe what it represents.

So, just to clarify, you're willing to take a life in the worst possible way... for setting fire to a piece of cloth from Wal-Mart that was made by little Chinese kids in a sweatshop?

Ampersand

There is no objective symbolism attached to flags, but that doesn't mean that subjective values attached to flags aren't relevant or fairly obvious.

While someone who is using the flag can claim they personally don't attach racist connotations to the confederate flag when they use it, likewise someone can claim that they personally don't attach insulting connotations to flipping someone the bird. Either way, don't be surprised if other people think you are a racist or an asshole.

someone234

@Erfisflat Well there are physically worse ways than burning.

If you burn the flag of the nation, the nation you reside in should remove the rights it has granted you.

Nope

someone234
The US has the rights of freedom of speech. Burning its flag is practicing this right. Why should practicing a right given to you by your country result in them taking away the right. You are supposed to be able to practice your rights. 

someone234

@Nope Oh, you seem to think I support freedom of speech and stuff to an unfettered level.

I am not a right-wing libertarian, so come and try again.

There's a ton of stuff people should be punished for saying and the punishment should be teaching them how to become a tolerant, understanding human being.

If I ever ran a nation, I'd be a leader like no other. My people would love me and those who don't would learn to.

Nope

someone234
I don't see how burning people who burn the flag teaches people how to be tolerant understanding human beings. I feel like that would be doing the opeset. You can't make some one love you. If they don't like you how can you teach them to like you? 

someone234

@Nope I said I want to burn them. I didn't say what I'd do was burn them.

The discipline to act differently to what you feel like doing is the difference between Floyd Mayweather and Conor McGregor.

Nope

P

MayCaesar

Confederate Flag is a symbol, and as any symbol, for a given individual it only has the meaning the individual gives it. Which means, in the most general terms, that as any symbol, it can stand for virtually anything. It can stand for racism, and it can not stand for racism.

Allow me to bring up an extreme example I've seen on TV a long time ago. In, I believe, Latvia there was a small parade of veterans of World War 2 in Nazi costumes. A reporter was interviewing one of the veterans, and approximately the following dialogue occurred:
Reporter: "Are you not ashamed of celebrating Nazism?"
Veteran: "We are not celebrating Nazism. We are celebrating our fight for freedom from Soviet occupants."
Reporter: "But what about the Nazi costume you are wearing?"
Veteran: "This is the costume I wore when fighting communism. I do not have any love for Nazis, and I would have fought them just as well if needed - but I do have love for freedom and for my history of fighting for it, no matter under which banner."

Just as this Veteran wore a Nazi costume because he treasured his memories, and not because he loved Nazis - people could wave a Confederate flag because they treasure the history and, perhaps, some specific Confederate ideals, and not because they support slavery.

So, the answer to your question is: it depends on the meaning the person waving the flag puts into it. People who get angry over the meaning they themselves put into someone else's flag are simply being emotional or not understanding of how symbols work.

drodgers

A flag can't be racist.  It takes a person.

brontoraptor

@AmericanFurryBoy

It stands for multiple things, depending on who flies it. Notice that the Dukes of Hazzard had the Confederate flag on the top of their car. It stood for being rebels.

Zombieguy1987

It's a flag, it stands for multiple things.

For me: It's just a piece of cloth from a historical part in American History

For that triggered SJW in the corner cringing: It represents racism

For a normal southerner: It's heritage 

WordsMatter

If any meaning is attached to the confederate flag it should be Anti-American before it stands for heritage or racism. It was literally the symbol for an armed attack against the United States of America.

Zombieguy1987

It's just a piece of cloth...

MayCaesar

@WordsMatter

Some would argue that the Confederation was a more genuine spiritual successor to the original USA model, than the Union. I am not so sure, since both of them misinterpreted the Founding Fathers' ideas: Confederation went towards extreme violations of individual liberties, and the Union put too much centralization into its system, violating state rights. But regardless, as they say, "History is written by victors". Were the Confederates to win that war, perhaps people would make similar sentiments with regards to the modern US flag, as they nowadays do with regards to the Confederate flag.

AlofRI

The Cuban Flag is the Flag of Cuba, not communism. Communists took over the COUNTRY and the Flag. That does NOT make the FLAG communist.

The Confederate Flag, on the other hand, was a "rebel flag", a symbol of those who rejected the United States Flag, It is similar to the Nazi Swastika Flag while the German Flag of the time was also rejected by rebels.

It is NOT the U.S. Flag, the German Flag OR the Cuban Flag that should be denigrated, it's the political groups that chose their own, or chose to use the existing one that should be denigrated! The flags of the Nazis and Confederates, or the traitors to a country are wrong, NOT the Cuban Flag.