Christians can't lose their salvation, change my mind.in Religion

YeshuaRedeemed

Judaism

From my past debate with you on this topic: 

Is "eternal security" biblical? You won't find it in the Jewish Bible, so, no. Can it be? Okay, let's theorize that for a moment, to believe that that's the case, one would have to assume that 6 million Jews - who didn't know Jesus - where send to hell, whereas Nazis who accepted Jesus - even before the Shoah took place - are reserved their place in heaven.

Is this god merciful? Is he just? Is he even logical!

No. This god is not merciful because he doesn't care for what you've done right, he only cares if you're saved because you happen to be born Christian. Is he just? No, because he'd happily send 6 million Jews to hell. . . you call that just? If he logical? No. Nothing more needs said.

Thankfully, though, this is not the real G-d, the one found in Scripture.

YeshuaRedeemed

@Judaism No, but you can find it in the New Testament. What we have are two different religious opinions. I am willing to consider your evidence though.

Judaism

YeshuaBought,

Thanks! Let's then play Marcion of Sinope.

linate

Jesus compared people's security to seeds. some grow for awhile, but various factors strangle them and they fall away. this seems pretty straightforward that some people lose their salvation. but even if we grant that it might be possible, how do you demarcate someone who was once saved always saved yet fell away and those who are never saved to begin with despite looking like it? i've known some people who had beautiful faiths, who later became staunch atheists. are these people still saved despite themselves or were they never saved to begin with? even if we grant that once saved always saved is possible, i don't know how we can know who it's applied to.

linate

kk

YeshuaRedeemed

@linate ;https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+6:39&version=AKJV

YeshuaRedeemed

YeshuaRedeemed

YeshuaRedeemed

Mr_Bombastic

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Those who have accepted Christ are no longer under a sentence of death. We were bought with a price. That price is the blood of Christ.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Nothing.

Salvation is not something that can be taken away. It cannot be lost.

Salvation results in a supernatural transformation. We pass from death to life.

poco

@Mr_Bombastic

you:  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Those who have accepted Christ are no longer under a sentence of death. We were bought with a price. That price is the blood of Christ.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Nothing.

Salvation is not something that can be taken away. It cannot be lost.

Salvation results in a supernatural transformation. We pass from death to life.

me:  I cannot agree more with this.  The only argument that some use is re blasphemy of the Holy Spirit verses in the NT.  But if some do just that, they would not have been a Christian to begin with ....... So, one can never lose salvation once gained.  There is not one verse in the NT that contradicts "once saved, always saved."

with_all_humility

@Mr_Bombastic

Can you supply the scriptures you are quoting from to save me a little time from looking them up?

with_all_humility

I believe you can lose one's salvation.  One text that comes to mind is.  Heb 10.26 (by the way, the book of Hebrews is full of examples of warnings of losing one's salvation, it is the purpose of the book to warn the Christians where were from the Jewish faith not to go back to Judaism anyway...)

Heb 10:26-27  For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

While the context is to Jews who were falling back to the practices of Judaism, the Hebrew writer is pretty clear.  If you willfully sin after gaining full understand of what a sinful act is and you go ahead and commit it.  There remains no sacrifice or forgiveness for those sins.  You can read the rest to see what the results of such actions are.

Mr_Bombastic

@with_all_humility read that again. It says if we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. It says nothing about being saved. What this verse is telling us is that someone who rejects Christ and continues to sin wilfully, will lose their chance of salvation, since they have made the choice to reject Christ. Basically, they are spitting in God's face and declaring that they do not need His gift of salvation. This also applies to false Christians. People who claim to know Christ yet continue in their sin anyway.

with_all_humility

@Mr_Bombastic

I beg to differ, the verse is not talking about the whole doctrine of Christ nor the rejection of Christ. It simply states if you do something and know it to be a sin, or you willfully commit it again. Then there is no forgiveness of that sin.  This would be like a person who is in an adulteress relationship.  How can a Christian, who lies with another's spouse be found in good favor with God?   God detest adultery.

Look to 1 Jn 1.7-9

1Jn 1:7-9  But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

John is clearly talking to Christians here if we confess our sins, He is faithful and forgives us of our sins...What happens if you don't ask for forgiveness?  What if you refuse to repent of your sins, such as being in an adulterous relationship?  Such a person does not reject the whole counsel of God, yet he is in a sinful state.  Remember sin is death, which is separation for God.  

Consider 1 Jn 2.18-19

1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Where did the Antichrist come from and who were they?  They came from church and they were former saints.  

Look at Heb 6.4-8

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.  For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Again the text is talking about brethren who have fallen away and not repented of their sins.  Yes, they do reject Christ and God the Father, because if the did not reject them they would repent.  This was a rebuke of brethren who failed to gain spiritual knowledge, they never move past the first principles of Christianity.  They were lazy, consider the illustration at the end of the passage.  If a soil is worked and cultivated it bears fruit (i.e. a Christian who grows in knowledge).  However, if the Christian (soil) is not cultivated, it receives the rain from the Lord, but bears thorns and briers (because they know no better) and are rejected and near to being cursed and burned away.  

So here the Hebrew writer is talking about non-productive Christians.  These are the people who just come to church and warm the pews.  They never study and grow in their spiritual knowledge no do they produce and good works.  I will stop here and let you respond.

poco

@with_all_humility

you: I believe you can lose one's salvation.  One text that comes to mind is.  Heb 10.26 (by the way, the book of Hebrews is full of examples of warnings of losing one's salvation, it is the purpose of the book to warn the Christians where were from the Jewish faith not to go back to Judaism anyway...)

Heb 10:26-27  For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

While the context is to Jews who were falling back to the practices of Judaism, the Hebrew writer is pretty clear.  If you willfully sin after gaining full understand of what a sinful act is and you go ahead and commit it.  There remains no sacrifice or forgiveness for those sins.  You can read the rest to see what the results of such actions are.

me:  Heb 10:26 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, right up to the edge of saving belief, who hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then reject what they have learned and turn away. These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. But rather than going on to spiritual maturity, their interest in Christ begins to diminish, the things of the world have more attraction to them rather than less, and eventually they lose all desire for the things of God and they turn away. The Lord illustrated these types of people in the second and third soils of Matt 13: 1-9, & 18-23. These are those who “receive with joy” the things of the Lord, but who are drawn away by the cares of the world or turned off by difficulties they encounter because of Christ.

“Willful sinning” in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God’s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately. Such a person does not sin because of ignorance, nor is he carried away by momentary temptations he is too weak to resist. The willful sinner sins because of an established way of thinking and acting which he has no desire to give up. The true believer, on the other hand, is one who lapses into sin and loses temporary fellowship with God. But he will eventually come back to God in repentance because his heavenly Father will continually woo and convict him until he can’t stay away any longer. The true apostate will continue to sin, deliberately, willingly and with abandon. John tells us that “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” 1John 3:9.

Apostates have knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. They can be found in the presence of the light of Christ, mostly in the church, among God’s people. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example—he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. No other rejector of the truth had more or better exposure to the love and grace of God than Judas. He was part of Jesus’ inner circle of disciples, eating, sleeping, and traveling with Him for years. He saw the miracles and heard the words of God from Jesus’ very lips, from the best preacher the world has ever known, and yet he not only turned away but was instrumental in the plot to kill Jesus.

Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with 1John 2:19.