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anonymousdebater

Today, I attended a sermon by pastor Craig Smith. The sermon was about how an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God can allow evil? Here is a quick summary of the message. If you want to see the message, go https://www.missionhills.org/messages/, but the message will probably not be posted for a few days.

Anyways...

First, how do we define evil? There are several definitions of evil. Let me know which one you agree with in the poll. The first definition is the opposite of good, which is a true, but also circular definition, and asks the question "What is good?". Saying that evil is anything unpleasant doesn't make sense because sometimes things that feel unpleasant are actually good in the long run. If evil is anything that society believes is evil, then if society were to flip an essential moral belief, such as common in totalitarian countries, such as Nazi Germany, then all morality will be altered. If evil is anything evolutionarily disadvantageous, then, altruistic behavior would still occur, as shown  and it is a reasonable explanation. However, none of these explanations say that good and evil are absolute rather than relative. Objective morality requires God.

Good is whatever is God-like and evil is whatever is not God-like.

Anyway, why does God allow evil? Free will. If we had no choice whether or not to serve God, we would be like robots. God does not want robots; he wants a relationship by choice. A choice to do good and a choice to do evil. After we experience the bad consequences on Earth, we will be able to always choose good in heaven.



So that's the sermon. Now I'll add my own comments based off of the Wikipedia page about the problem of evil.

One objection is that one's free will imposes on another's free will in many cases, such as in major atrocities. Why would God do nothing in case of murder? Well, what would you expect God to do?

Another objection is that God could have made it impossible or very unpleasant to harm others. Impossible to harm others is no longer free will, while making it unpleasant to harm others is the job of one's conscience.

Yet another objection is natural evils, evils which exist and are not caused by humans. However, I would argue that they were caused by the fall of man or are trials from God intending to make us more faithful.


By the time you read this, the sermon may be online. Or it may not be. It's called the Problem of God and Evil.

AlexOland

"What is evil?"
 If  something is both unjust and displeasing, it is evil.

 This definition is the same for most people, but because the meaning of "just" and "displeasing" is not the same for all people, there is varying thoughts to what "evil" is.

 This definition doesn't work for those who do not believe that "justice" is a thing, though. 

TTKDB

@anonymousdebater

Is it good verses evil, when a offender commits a crime against an innocent individual?

Is it good verses evil, when a drug user teaches a kid how to use an illegaI drug, or a legalized drug around the same kid, when it's illegal to have both a legalized drug and Illegal drugs around kids to begin with? 

Is it good verses evil, when an illegal immigrant commits a crime against a law enforcement officer? 

Good verses evil is bigger, than the conversation in regards to religion is exclusively.

AlofRI

@TTKDB Again, I agree with most of what you say. The one exemption here is that your #3 point doesn't always agree with your #1.  #3 can be reversed. "Is it good versus evil when a law enforcement officer commits a crime against an immigrant?" (legal OR illegal). It has happened BOTH ways. It is evil both ways. IMO

TTKDB

@AlofRI

Then humanity in general has an issue with itself, whether it wants to face it's own reality or not. 

Where is your evidence to support your below statement? 

#3 can be reversed. "Is it good versus evil when a law enforcement officer commits a crime against an immigrant?" (legal OR illegal). It has happened BOTH ways. It is evil both ways. IMO"

Because this sad story has been in the news for the last few days:

https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/12/28/us/suspect-arrest-california-police-officer-killed/index.html?usqp=mq331AQECAFYAQ==&amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#referrer=https://www.google.com&ampshare=https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/28/us/suspect-arrest-california-police-officer-killed/index.html

Zombieguy1987

Of course God is evil...

I mean who writes about book about these...

And claims to be all loving and caring

Oh...

And some verses being REMOVED! from the bible (mmmm… seems a bit strange given that this is suppose to be god's work)



Oh and Qur'an isn't ANY better!

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987

"Of course God is evil...

I mean who writes about book about these..."

Of course an anti religious individual, may expess,  "Of course God is evil.."

This is the internet, some of the anti religious individuals, may choose to use the internet to express negative things about a God, or God's in 2018, and it's being mirrored already in 2019? 

Some of humanity can be evil to, can't it?

https://www-thesun-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/london-stabbings-2018-clapham-shepherds-bush-crouch-hill-kingsland-hammersmith-latest/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAFYAQ==#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/london-stabbings-2018-clapham-shepherds-bush-crouch-hill-kingsland-hammersmith-greenwich-latest/

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987:

When it comes to: God and evil, can't some of humanity be evil, just as you view God as evil? 

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[4] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons),[5][6] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).[7] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[8] 21,175 suicides,[7] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[7] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country. 

From Wikipedia: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States. ;

TTKDB

Who is more evil, a God or God's? 

Or the criminals who commit murders, year after year, and for decades? 

The offenders who go home, and then wage their bouts of domestic violence and abuse, against their families, after getting home? 

Or is it maybe politically incorrect, to express that a criminal could be viewed as evil?

So, it's maybe, just easier to label a God, or God's as evil to make an anti religious point of view with? 

anonymousdebater

@Zombieguy1987 ;

The Quran I honestly know very little about. The Bible I know a bit more about...

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/what-made-it-okay-for-god-to-kill-women-and-children-in-the-old-testament
"It's right for God to slaughter women and children anytime he pleases. God gives life and he takes life. Everybody who dies, dies because God wills that they die."

In the Old Testament, the Israelites were God's chosen people, so anytime any group of people opposed them or anytime there was any sort of division among the Israelites, God was not slow to punish them.

As for the verses about slavery, slavery was already an institution, so most laws were put in place to make slavery better rather than to eliminate it entirely. The verse from Exodus is a bit different than the NIV "Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." This offers a very limited protection: saying that killing a slave is illegal, which may not seem significant, but it is something.

The verse from Ephesians should be looked at in context. Of course, Ephesians 6:9 reads, "And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him." and most nearby verses talk about other relationships: husband-wife, parents-children, and master-slave.

And of course do not forget about the book of Philemon. In the book, Paul writes to Philemon urging him to accept Onesimus, a former slave, as a free man, and to charge anything that Onesimus owes to Paul. Paul is encouraging the prior slave owner to welcome the slave back, except as a free person. Does that change anything???

The Bible does have several verses in footnotes, but none of those verses that were taken out influence the main doctrine. The reason they are in footnotes is because some Bible manuscripts have the verses, but others do not. Even the Holy Word of God is going to encounter some minor changes. The most significant changes include the ending of Mark and the section about the adulterous woman in John.

AlofRI

@TTKDB ; "because this sad story has been in the news the last several days.
You must be very young. Anyway, I won't bother with bringing up all the very sad stories that have been in the news about law officers that have killed, like those who came zooming up, jumped out of the car and blazed away at a kid with a toy gun! Not an immigrant? there are enough of those too. By the way, most "immigrants" that have killed police didn't just get off the banana truck, they've been here for years. MOST came here to better themselves, if they can't, they go the other way. That happens to ANY minority that faces discrimination, (well, MANY of them). If YOU faced discrimination and couldn't make a living you may have gone the same way. It doesn't help to blame immigrants in general, or races in general. It doesn't help AT ALL to carry the idea that cops are never to blame for their mistakes … or prejudices. I have a Police Chief and a Deputy Sheriff in my family, I like "cops", but to hold the idea that ALL of them are good, is blind. Immigrants are individuals, there are good and bad … just like cops. We have to accept them when necessary, weed out the bad and help the good. There are few families in the U.S. that don't have immigrant backgrounds.

ethang5

@Zombieguy1987

>I mean who writes about book about these...

News reporters, historians, social studies documenters, sociologists, etc. Each one a part of what the bible is.

It is a loony belief that writing about negative things means one advocates those negative things.

Another loony liberal belief is that crimes like murder are absolute. But people who condemn God will excuse Churchill in WWII. Or will excuse a police officer for shooting a child rapist. The excuse means that whether some act is a crime or not depends on who the actor is.

They will understand this principle and use it in life, but when it comes to God, they immediately forget it and pretend murder is absolute and has no mitigating factors.

The want to make God a man, under human law. As if God would create men, and then immediately  become enslaved by His creation. Loony.

This is why zombieguy needs tacky graphics. He has no logic, no thinking, just shouting - as if his belief is established truth.

Try to engage him in reasoned debate and he runs, only to show up later in another thread with another logic free graphic.

I know you won't answer questions z-guy. I just want to take away your "I didn't know" excuse.

Zombieguy1987

ethang5 said:

@Zombieguy1987

>I mean who writes about book about these...

News reporters, historians, social studies documenters, sociologists, etc. Each one a part of what the bible is.

When did I mention the above? I was talking about God.

It is a loony belief that writing about negative things means one advocates those negative things.

Really? Than explain why the bible SUPPORTS them

Another loony liberal belief is that crimes like murder are absolute. But people who condemn God will excuse Churchill in WWII. 

Ah, I see. Continue to call me a liberal despite the evidence against. Continue to play the assume this game. It doesn't look good on you.

I don't excuse Churchill, but are we talking about him right now? no.

Or will excuse a police officer for shooting a child rapist. 

Comparing Churchill to a cop shooting a child rapist is a poor comparison, but what Churchill did wasn't good, but a cop shooting a child rapist can be justified.

The excuse means that whether some act is a crime or not depends on who the actor is.

No, it's called a crap comparison to a politician who helped defeat Nazi Germany during World War 2 to a cop killing a criminal who rapes children

They will understand this principle and use it in life, but when it comes to God, they immediately forget it and pretend murder is absolute and has no mitigating factors.

God is SUPPOSE to be ALL LOVING and CARING, yet he/she has put verse that support killing people who don't support their religion, homosexual etc.

The want to make God a man, under human law. As if God would create men, and then immediately  become enslaved by His creation. Loony.

We don't have any kind of physical proof of he/she existance. So naturally, anyone will assume he/she is a human. Until we have actual physical evidence, he/she is assumed to be something like this: 

This is why zombieguy needs tacky graphics. He has no logic, no thinking, just shouting - as if his belief is established truth.

I don't shout... It called evidence dumbass. Links, videos, pictures are EVIDENCE! You've yet to give a SINGLE bit of evidence to prove me wrong. 

Try to engage him in reasoned debate and he runs, only to show up later in another thread with another logic free graphic.

No, it's called showing which verses are supporting inhumane things like murder to show that God supports evil.

I know you won't answer questions z-guy. I just want to take away your "I didn't know" excuse.

Do you have any evidence to show that I don't answer questions (And if you show questions that are off topic that doesn't count)

Zombieguy1987

TTKDB said:

@Zombieguy1987

"Of course God is evil...

I mean who writes about book about these..."

Of course an anti religious individual, may expess,  "Of course God is evil.."

Maybe it's because if you were to LOOK AT THE VERSES! you would understand the hypocrisy of religion.

This is the internet, some of the anti religious individuals, may choose to use the internet to express negative things about a God, or God's in 2018, and it's being mirrored already in 2019? 

Or, maybe, just maybe. It's actually easier to find the specific verses without needed to pictures of the verses in the bible, which is between 1190-1701 pages depending on which version of the bible you own.  

Some of humanity can be evil to, can't it?

Of course humanity can be evil, but we're talking about God, who "supposedly" created humanity in his/her image, and if humanity can do very violent things like genocide, then that means God can genocide people if he/she wanted to.

https://www-thesun-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/london-stabbings-2018-clapham-shepherds-bush-crouch-hill-kingsland-hammersmith-latest/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAFYAQ==#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/london-stabbings-2018-clapham-shepherds-bush-crouch-hill-kingsland-hammersmith-greenwich-latest/

Zombieguy1987

TTKDB said:

@Zombieguy1987:

When it comes to: God and evil, can't some of humanity be evil, just as you view God as evil? 

Oh, so now you're going to USE GUNS!? Something that wasn't a THING when the bible was made! tsk tsk tsk

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[4] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons),[5][6] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).[7] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[8] 21,175 suicides,[7] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[7] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country. 

Oh, @TTKDB, are you lost? If you want to debate guns violence and control go here: http://dev1.debateisland.com/discussion/3200/should-america-have-gun-control

From Wikipedia: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States. ;

Off topic N.E.X.T.!

MayCaesar

The god does not exist. The Universe exists, and it does not care about what we think is "good" or "evil": it does its thing, and if our feelings our hurt, it is up to us to reconcile our lives with it.

Someone did an evil thing by not splitting their bread with a homeless person? There are supernovae out there that likely wipe out countless civilizations almost instantly, and nobody bats an eye. The world we live in is full of both destruction and creation, and it is us who classify them as "good" or "evil", not the Universe, not the "god", not anything/anyone else.

If we do assume that the god exists, then the god likely has the same view as the Universe: he does not care about our classifications. He probably does not even notice us, given how tiny we are on the overall scale. Do you think about "good" and "evil" you do with regards to the bacteria flying around you? Probably not. And for a such a powerful being that controls the entire world, we would be far smaller than the bacteria still.

We are insects. The sooner people stop venerating themselves as some sort of "chosen beings" and accept that the world does not care about them, the sooner we can move on from the primitive superstitions to the world of sophisticated technologies and philosophies.