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Erfisflat

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

Let me try using the semantics on a different topic that is less emotional to you. 

I can either believe or not believe you are the smartest person on this website.  (leaving proof out it, and using you so it doesn't sound so egotistical)

If I don't believe you are the smartest person it can be restated that as a claim that you are NOT the smartest person on this website, as this is changing the nature of the statement by subtles. Even if I do allow the change from one where I don't agree with your claim, to one where I make a claim that you are wrong it doesn't cover the openness to change my opinion on whether or not you are the smartest person on this website does it? Just because I don't believe you aren't the smartest person on this website, there is no implication that I would not accept an IQ test as proof that you are the smartest person on this website. By believe is my current state, and is subject to change just like anything other beliefs. Like I use to believe that cottage cheese sucked, but now I don't believe that any more. The same is true with the term theist or atheist, there is no implication about the openness to changing your opinion on the subject. I currently do not believe god(s) exist... so I'm an atheist. period... full stop. 

As I have said before atheists believe in nothing, they claim no believe. Their position is a null position, and should be the default position of EVERYONE in my opinion just as I am an abasketball player, or an apolitician. The default state should be that I am NOT something. I don't hold a belief that I'm not a basketball player and I'll never be a basketball player, I simply don't believe I am a basketball player. (and a not a wide host of other things as well) 

Hopefully you can see how you support my position with this statement "if there was proof, most atheists would likely abandon their belief" as a semantics debate with someone who is willfully using the terms incorrectly because they can't deal with cognitive dissonance isn't that interesting to me.

I realized I was debating with someone who is willfully using the terms incorrectly at the beginning of this debate.  I understand your position quite well, unfortunately you're just plain wrong.  What you claim is an atheist is NOT an atheist by any definition of the word, which is why I posted them.  Those are YOUR SOURCES, they're the very same sites you used earlier in the debate.  "A person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."  "A person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being."  "An atheist is a person who believes that there is no God."  "Someone who believes that God does not exist."  You're trying, desperately and unsuccessfully, to introduce a grey area where none exists.  An atheist is a believer (or disbeliever).  There is no grey area, no ambiguity, no middle ground, no wiggle room, in a single one of those definitions.  As "abasketball player", "apolitician", and "asmartest person on this website" are not words with established definitions, they can mean whatever you want them to mean.  Atheism is an established word with a specific and well-established meaning.  That meaning isn't what you consistently, but erroneously, claim it is.  It doesn't matter how much you wish things to be different, or how much you really really want things to be different, or how many friends you have that have the same mistaken belief, that isn't reality.  The reality is, atheism is the BELIEF THAT THERE IS NO GOD.  If you simply don't believe in God, YOU ARE NOT AN ATHEIST!!!  If you don't believe in God, but you're open to the possibility, YOU ARE NOT AN ATHEIST.  You're an infidel or a disbeliever if you don't like the term "infidel", but you are NOT an atheist.

I fail to see how my statement "if there was proof, most atheists would likely abandon their belief" in any way supports your position.  Most atheists believe there is no God because they have no proof of God's existence.  If presented with such proof, they would admit they were wrong (you could use a lesson in that department), abandon their erroneous belief, and adopt a new belief.

He's good at making sh!t up to try and prove his points.

Coveny

Christ said:

For atheism to exist theism must also exist, no theism no atheism, atheism exists only in the mind of the theist.

Atheism is not a religion in itself, atheism is a part of the theist's religion.

Unwilling people become a part of the theist's religion whether they want to be or not.

Atheism is imposed on atheists by theists, it is a form of religious persecution and bigotry.

So if I say I'm not part of the theist's religion ... I'm part of the theist's religion? So everyone become theists in every religion because you can't accept there is an option WITHOUT god(s) in it?

Theist impose atheism?!?!? Wait what? Atheist have to fight HARD against theism to break free, and some never truly do because the conditioning is so strong. Theist want to KILL atheist in almost every religion, not create them. Theists are all about conforming to the status quo.

Coveny

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

Let me try using the semantics on a different topic that is less emotional to you. 

I can either believe or not believe you are the smartest person on this website.  (leaving proof out it, and using you so it doesn't sound so egotistical)

If I don't believe you are the smartest person it can be restated that as a claim that you are NOT the smartest person on this website, as this is changing the nature of the statement by subtles. Even if I do allow the change from one where I don't agree with your claim, to one where I make a claim that you are wrong it doesn't cover the openness to change my opinion on whether or not you are the smartest person on this website does it? Just because I don't believe you aren't the smartest person on this website, there is no implication that I would not accept an IQ test as proof that you are the smartest person on this website. By believe is my current state, and is subject to change just like anything other beliefs. Like I use to believe that cottage cheese sucked, but now I don't believe that any more. The same is true with the term theist or atheist, there is no implication about the openness to changing your opinion on the subject. I currently do not believe god(s) exist... so I'm an atheist. period... full stop. 

As I have said before atheists believe in nothing, they claim no believe. Their position is a null position, and should be the default position of EVERYONE in my opinion just as I am an abasketball player, or an apolitician. The default state should be that I am NOT something. I don't hold a belief that I'm not a basketball player and I'll never be a basketball player, I simply don't believe I am a basketball player. (and a not a wide host of other things as well) 

Hopefully you can see how you support my position with this statement "if there was proof, most atheists would likely abandon their belief" as a semantics debate with someone who is willfully using the terms incorrectly because they can't deal with cognitive dissonance isn't that interesting to me.

I realized I was debating with someone who is willfully using the terms incorrectly at the beginning of this debate.  I understand your position quite well, unfortunately you're just plain wrong.  What you claim is an atheist is NOT an atheist by any definition of the word, which is why I posted them.  Those are YOUR SOURCES, they're the very same sites you used earlier in the debate.  "A person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."  "A person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being."  "An atheist is a person who believes that there is no God."  "Someone who believes that God does not exist."  You're trying, desperately and unsuccessfully, to introduce a grey area where none exists.  An atheist is a believer (or disbeliever).  There is no grey area, no ambiguity, no middle ground, no wiggle room, in a single one of those definitions.  As "abasketball player", "apolitician", and "asmartest person on this website" are not words with established definitions, they can mean whatever you want them to mean.  Atheism is an established word with a specific and well-established meaning.  That meaning isn't what you consistently, but erroneously, claim it is.  It doesn't matter how much you wish things to be different, or how much you really really want things to be different, or how many friends you have that have the same mistaken belief, that isn't reality.  The reality is, atheism is the BELIEF THAT THERE IS NO GOD.  If you simply don't believe in God, YOU ARE NOT AN ATHEIST!!!  If you don't believe in God, but you're open to the possibility, YOU ARE NOT AN ATHEIST.  You're an infidel or a disbeliever if you don't like the term "infidel", but you are NOT an atheist.

I fail to see how my statement "if there was proof, most atheists would likely abandon their belief" in any way supports your position.  Most atheists believe there is no God because they have no proof of God's existence.  If presented with such proof, they would admit they were wrong (you could use a lesson in that department), abandon their erroneous belief, and adopt a new belief.

For someone who is butchering the English language in a semantics debate you are one to talk... Let me copy and paste for you:
disbelieves

Doesn't believe or DISBELIEVES that god exists. These are NULL statements. They are "I don't believe that" statements. But I guess we need to go back to defining all this crap again.

Thiest
Webster - belief in the existence of a god or gods
Dictionary - belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism )
Oxford - Belief in the existence of a god or gods
Free Dictionary - Belief in the existence of a god or gods

Atheist
Webster - a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods
Dictionary - a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Oxford - A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods
Free Dictionary - Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

Agnostic
Webster - a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable
Dictionary - a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable
Oxford - A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
Free Dictionary - a person who holds that knowledge of a Supreme Being, ultimate cause, etc, is impossible.

I do NOT believe in god, I am an ATHEIST. period. complete freaking stop. I do NOT believe that reality can't be known, or that god(s) is unknowable. 

My position is that I don't believe but I'm willing to change my mind if evidence changes my mind. You say that is an agnostic, and yet you also say that "if there was proof, most atheists would likely abandon their belief". If ANYONE is "willfully using the terms incorrectly" it's you.

CYDdharta

@Coveny There's no difference between disbelieving in God's existence and believing God does not exist.  If you disbelieve in God's existence you reject belief in God existence, which is the same as saying you believe God does not exist.  You have a definite and distinct belief.  If you just don't believe in God, you don't have a definite and distinct belief, but you're also NOT AN ATHEIST!!!!!! 

I have never said you're agnostic, I said you're an infidel.  If you think evidence can arise that would change your mind, you're not agnostic.  Agnostics believe that the existence of God and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable.  To be an agnostic, you believe no such evidence could ever be found. 

PotterWatch

I'm just going to tell you a theory of my own. Atheism doesn't actually exist. In fact it can't. To be an atheist is to believe in absolutely nothing. I say atheism doesn't exist because it's impossible to not believe in anything. Everyone believes something, therefore, no one can consider themselves an atheist.

Coveny

CYDdharta said:

@Coveny There's no difference between disbelieving in God's existence and believing God does not exist.  If you disbelieve in God's existence you reject belief in God existence, which is the same as saying you believe God does not exist.  You have a definite and distinct belief.  If you just don't believe in God, you don't have a definite and distinct belief, but you're also NOT AN ATHEIST!!!!!! 

I have never said you're agnostic, I said you're an infidel.  If you think evidence can arise that would change your mind, you're not agnostic.  Agnostics believe that the existence of God and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable.  To be an agnostic, you believe no such evidence could ever be found. 

It's not the same thing to "not believe" as it is to "believe". It's used interchangeably by most but fails when applied. Saying "I don't believe you" isn't the same thing as saying "I believe you are wrong". If you've spoken English to like anyone you'll know that one is skepticism in someone's claim and the other belief their claim is wrong. The dictionary supports this by defining theist as "believes in", while not defining atheist as "believes in" but rather "does not believe in, or disbelieves". My position on these topics has not changed, nor have I made up any definitions, and the definitions support my position on the semantics of the three words. 

As far as not saying I'm an agnostic... oh really?






You should join the flat earthers they LOVE to lie.

Coveny

PotterWatch said:

I'm just going to tell you a theory of my own. Atheism doesn't actually exist. In fact it can't. To be an atheist is to believe in absolutely nothing. I say atheism doesn't exist because it's impossible to not believe in anything. Everyone believes something, therefore, no one can consider themselves an atheist.

Oh look another theist who doesn't understand how someone can not believe in god(s). 

Atheism doesn't mean you don't believe in ANYTHING, it just means they don't believe in one thing... god(s).

The cognitive bias is strong here...

CYDdharta

Coveny said:

It's not the same thing to "not believe" as it is to "believe". It's used interchangeably by most but fails when applied. Saying "I don't believe you" isn't the same thing as saying "I believe you are wrong". If you've spoken English to like anyone you'll know that one is skepticism in someone's claim and the other belief their claim is wrong. The dictionary supports this by defining theist as "believes in", while not defining atheist as "believes in" but rather "does not believe in, or disbelieves". My position on these topics has not changed, nor have I made up any definitions, and the definitions support my position on the semantics of the three words.

It is the same thing to not believe something as it is to believe something is not.  The dictionary does NOT support your contention IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.  Not believing in something is NOT the same as DENYING OR DISBELIEVING in something as atheism is defined in the dictionary entries.  Denying there is a God is NOT the same as not believing in God.  Disbelieving in God's existence is NOT the same not believing in God.  You are an atheist ONLY if you hold those views.  Your position hasn't changed, but it's been WRONG all along. 

Coveny said:

You should join the flat earthers they LOVE to lie.

At least they have a better grasp of the English language.

CYDdharta

Coveny said:

Oh look another theist who doesn't understand how someone can not believe in god(s). 

Atheism doesn't mean you don't believe in ANYTHING, it just means they don't believe in one thing... god(s).

The cognitive bias is strong here...

Incorrect; an atheist is  a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.  If you're going to try to correct someone, at least get it right.

Coveny

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

It's not the same thing to "not believe" as it is to "believe". It's used interchangeably by most but fails when applied. Saying "I don't believe you" isn't the same thing as saying "I believe you are wrong". If you've spoken English to like anyone you'll know that one is skepticism in someone's claim and the other belief their claim is wrong. The dictionary supports this by defining theist as "believes in", while not defining atheist as "believes in" but rather "does not believe in, or disbelieves". My position on these topics has not changed, nor have I made up any definitions, and the definitions support my position on the semantics of the three words.

It is the same thing to not believe something as it is to believe something is not.  The dictionary does NOT support your contention IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.  Not believing in something is NOT the same as DENYING OR DISBELIEVING in something as atheism is defined in the dictionary entries.  Denying there is a God is NOT the same as not believing in God.  Disbelieving in God's existence is NOT the same not believing in God.  You are an atheist ONLY if you hold those views.  Your position hasn't changed, but it's been WRONG all along. 

Coveny said:

You should join the flat earthers they LOVE to lie.

At least they have a better grasp of the English language.

Ok then why don't they define atheist as "a believe god(s) don't exist"? Why is there a difference in the phrasing, if what you say is correct, and they mean the same thing? They are worded differently because they have different meanings. So go ahead... explain it to me.

Coveny

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

Oh look another theist who doesn't understand how someone can not believe in god(s). 

Atheism doesn't mean you don't believe in ANYTHING, it just means they don't believe in one thing... god(s).

The cognitive bias is strong here...

Incorrect; an atheist is  a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.  If you're going to try to correct someone, at least get it right.

I did get it right. They don't believe, or DISBELIEVE the existence of a supreme being(s), and doesn't state or imply that you don't believe in anything. Go away liar...

Evidence

Coveny said:

Evidence said:

@Coveny said: "A theist believes with no proof, an atheist does not believe. An agnostic doesn't know if there can be proof, but still either believes or doesn't believe there is a god

OK you lost me here @Coveny, .. so "Who's" on first?

A theist believes in god(s) - I do not believe they have proof
An atheist doesn't believe in god(s)
An agnostic doesn't know if there can be proof of god(s) or they are unsure about the proof of god(s) but they can believe or not in god(s) regardless

I know English is your third language but I've been over this ad nauseam. 

Sorry but still sounds like Abbot and Castelo's "Who's on first?" skit.

A theist believes in god(s) - is on first holding a football yelling; "Touchdown!"
I do not believe they have proof - is on second, confused about the guy on first.
An atheist doesn't believe in god(s) - doesn't know which base he's on, nor what game he's in?
An agnostic doesn't know if there can be proof of god(s) - a spectator who never played sports, nor ever seen a baseball game
or they are unsure about the proof of god(s) - thinks it's hockey, but not sure? The puck and the stick is just way too weird.
but they can believe or not in god(s) regardless - doesn't care one way or another, so just walks around the field aimlessly!?.

You see, you still don't know who's on first? The theist believes in man made gods, .. idols of wood, stone or plastic, yet you are referring to a theist as if he had something to do with the Bible, and our Heavenly Father, our Infinite and Eternal Creator "I Am" revealed in there?
That's like the kid who thinks his father is a plastic toy soldier, and you believe him!? The atheist part of this would be like; you hear the kid claim the plastic toy soldier as his dad, you admit that's what he believes, but then you claim the plastic toy soldier doesn't exist!?

Come on Castelo, get with the game!

Evidence

PotterWatch said:

I'm just going to tell you a theory of my own. Atheism doesn't actually exist. In fact it can't. To be an atheist is to believe in absolutely nothing. I say atheism doesn't exist because it's impossible to not believe in anything. Everyone believes something, therefore, no one can consider themselves an atheist.

Hello @PotterWatch
Well, .. atheists don't really claim that; they don't believe in "anything", but what they claim is that "gods don't exist", .. even when they know that tens of thousands of them do "exist".

But you're right, if atheists "believe" that gods don't exist, then how the heck would they exist, .. right? Atheists need gods to exist so they could NOT-believe in them! lol

No matter how we throw it, atheism makes no sense.

Evidence

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

It's not the same thing to "not believe" as it is to "believe". It's used interchangeably by most but fails when applied. Saying "I don't believe you" isn't the same thing as saying "I believe you are wrong". If you've spoken English to like anyone you'll know that one is skepticism in someone's claim and the other belief their claim is wrong. The dictionary supports this by defining theist as "believes in", while not defining atheist as "believes in" but rather "does not believe in, or disbelieves". My position on these topics has not changed, nor have I made up any definitions, and the definitions support my position on the semantics of the three words.

It is the same thing to not believe something as it is to believe something is not.  The dictionary does NOT support your contention IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.  Not believing in something is NOT the same as DENYING OR DISBELIEVING in something as atheism is defined in the dictionary entries.  Denying there is a God is NOT the same as not believing in God.  Disbelieving in God's existence is NOT the same not believing in God.  You are an atheist ONLY if you hold those views.  Your position hasn't changed, but it's been WRONG all along. 

Coveny said:

You should join the flat earthers they LOVE to lie.

At least they have a better grasp of the English language.

@CYDdharta said: It is the same thing to not believe something as it is to believe something is not.

How is that? I mean you could tell me a story that I would not believe, .. but I wouldn't say your story didn't exist?

I had an old car that I didn't believe in (1972 Chevy Vega), so I didn't drive it much. But I would never claim "it was not", .. or that it didn't exist! .. I wish it didn't, but that's not the same.

This is what I've been trying to Convey to Coveny, that not believing in something is still faith, or "belief", .. but it doesn't mean that whatever you don't believe in doesn't exist.

But atheism claims both, that they have no "belief/faith" AND that something they can see, and even buy does not exist either???

Evidence

@Coveny How about this?

"I don't believe"
You don't believe in what?
"I don't believe in god/gods"

This already proves that you believe in the existence of god/gods because you said "god/gods". You have to have a picture in your mind in what you claim you don't believe in.

"And it's not just that I don't believe in gods, but I don't believe that gods even exist!"

Now if gods really didn't exist, you could neither believe, nor "not believe" in them. Neither theists, nor atheists would even exist, because both need at least one god to believe, or not-believe in.

So, .. to claim that: "you have no faith," and claim that "gods don't exist", you are a double liar.
Liar, liar pant's on fire!

This is where Jesus comes in, you can always repent Coveny! God (not any of the Greek pagan theos/gods) but our Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am", .. your and my Creator, loves you!

JoePineapples

PotterWatch said:

I'm just going to tell you a theory of my own. Atheism doesn't actually exist. In fact it can't. To be an atheist is to believe in absolutely nothing. I say atheism doesn't exist because it's impossible to not believe in anything. Everyone believes something, therefore, no one can consider themselves an atheist.

I'm afraid that redefining something so that it complies with a theory you just cooked up, doesn't count.
I could just as easily say "I have a theory, cows don't exist, they can't. To be a cow you have to be pink and fluffy and float above blue flowers all the time without expending any energy. Since this is impossible, there cannot be any cows".

JoePineapples

@Evidence
You appear to be very confused about the difference between believing in the existence of gods and believing in the concept of gods.

Coveny

Evidence said:

Coveny said:

Evidence said:

@Coveny said: "A theist believes with no proof, an atheist does not believe. An agnostic doesn't know if there can be proof, but still either believes or doesn't believe there is a god

OK you lost me here @Coveny, .. so "Who's" on first?

A theist believes in god(s) - I do not believe they have proof
An atheist doesn't believe in god(s)
An agnostic doesn't know if there can be proof of god(s) or they are unsure about the proof of god(s) but they can believe or not in god(s) regardless

I know English is your third language but I've been over this ad nauseam. 

Sorry but still sounds like Abbot and Castelo's "Who's on first?" skit.

A theist believes in god(s) - is on first holding a football yelling; "Touchdown!"
I do not believe they have proof - is on second, confused about the guy on first.
An atheist doesn't believe in god(s) - doesn't know which base he's on, nor what game he's in?
An agnostic doesn't know if there can be proof of god(s) - a spectator who never played sports, nor ever seen a baseball game
or they are unsure about the proof of god(s) - thinks it's hockey, but not sure? The puck and the stick is just way too weird.
but they can believe or not in god(s) regardless - doesn't care one way or another, so just walks around the field aimlessly!?.

You see, you still don't know who's on first? The theist believes in man made gods, .. idols of wood, stone or plastic, yet you are referring to a theist as if he had something to do with the Bible, and our Heavenly Father, our Infinite and Eternal Creator "I Am" revealed in there?
That's like the kid who thinks his father is a plastic toy soldier, and you believe him!? The atheist part of this would be like; you hear the kid claim the plastic toy soldier as his dad, you admit that's what he believes, but then you claim the plastic toy soldier doesn't exist!?

Come on Castelo, get with the game!

Theists believe in an uncreated creator. What do you believe in @Evidence ?

Coveny

Evidence said:

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

It's not the same thing to "not believe" as it is to "believe". It's used interchangeably by most but fails when applied. Saying "I don't believe you" isn't the same thing as saying "I believe you are wrong". If you've spoken English to like anyone you'll know that one is skepticism in someone's claim and the other belief their claim is wrong. The dictionary supports this by defining theist as "believes in", while not defining atheist as "believes in" but rather "does not believe in, or disbelieves". My position on these topics has not changed, nor have I made up any definitions, and the definitions support my position on the semantics of the three words.

It is the same thing to not believe something as it is to believe something is not.  The dictionary does NOT support your contention IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.  Not believing in something is NOT the same as DENYING OR DISBELIEVING in something as atheism is defined in the dictionary entries.  Denying there is a God is NOT the same as not believing in God.  Disbelieving in God's existence is NOT the same not believing in God.  You are an atheist ONLY if you hold those views.  Your position hasn't changed, but it's been WRONG all along. 

Coveny said:

You should join the flat earthers they LOVE to lie.

At least they have a better grasp of the English language.

@CYDdharta said: It is the same thing to not believe something as it is to believe something is not.

How is that? I mean you could tell me a story that I would not believe, .. but I wouldn't say your story didn't exist?

I had an old car that I didn't believe in (1972 Chevy Vega), so I didn't drive it much. But I would never claim "it was not", .. or that it didn't exist! .. I wish it didn't, but that's not the same.

This is what I've been trying to Convey to Coveny, that not believing in something is still faith, or "belief", .. but it doesn't mean that whatever you don't believe in doesn't exist.

But atheism claims both, that they have no "belief/faith" AND that something they can see, and even buy does not exist either???

Oh that's priceless. You two semantics twisters go at it and have fun. 

Oh and CYDdharta ask him about halloween costumes the mental gymnastics he does on that one is decent.

Coveny

Evidence said:

@Coveny How about this?

"I don't believe"
You don't believe in what?
"I don't believe in god/gods"

This already proves that you believe in the existence of god/gods because you said "god/gods". You have to have a picture in your mind in what you claim you don't believe in.

"And it's not just that I don't believe in gods, but I don't believe that gods even exist!"

Now if gods really didn't exist, you could neither believe, nor "not believe" in them. Neither theists, nor atheists would even exist, because both need at least one god to believe, or not-believe in.

So, .. to claim that: "you have no faith," and claim that "gods don't exist", you are a double liar.
Liar, liar pant's on fire!

This is where Jesus comes in, you can always repent Coveny! God (not any of the Greek pagan theos/gods) but our Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am", .. your and my Creator, loves you!

Don't want to go down this road with you AGAIN @Evidence. I read about fictional characters like Harry Potter but I don't believe they exist. You should go to your nearest mental health facility and tell the doctors that you believe Harry Potter exists. It should give you plenty of people to chat with after that.  

Again if you believe in a creator, then you are a theist. If you believe/worship yahweh then you are NO different than millions of other theists who worship yahweh from the bible regardless of if you define yahweh as "infinite, Eternal creative mind/spirit I am". I'm not buying your theist BS, your religion is no different and certainly not any better than any of the other 3,000 that are out there.

CYDdharta

Coveny said:

Ok then why don't they define atheist as "a believe god(s) don't exist"? Why is there a difference in the phrasing, if what you say is correct, and they mean the same thing? They are worded differently because they have different meanings. So go ahead... explain it to me.

They do, that's what denying or disbelieving in one's existence means.  Disbelief and denial are synonyms.

CYDdharta

Coveny said:

I did get it right. They don't believe, or DISBELIEVE the existence of a supreme being(s), and doesn't state or imply that you don't believe in anything. Go away liar...

Disbelieving doesn't mean simply not believing, it means to reject belief in something.  People never say "I disbelieve I'll have the chicken cobb salad", that doesn't make any sense.  They may say "I don't believe I'll have the chicken cobb salad".  There is a difference in meaning between the two statements.  You've been wrong from the start of the debate; it's well past the time to just admit you're wrong and move on.

Erfisflat

As currently, there is no (accepted) proof of or against the Creator, one must believe either what the scientists say, or what the theist says. Either way, you believe what somebody says, ergo, you have a belief system.

CYDdharta

Evidence said:

@CYDdharta said: It is the same thing to not believe something as it is to believe something is not.

How is that? I mean you could tell me a story that I would not believe, .. but I wouldn't say your story didn't exist?

I had an old car that I didn't believe in (1972 Chevy Vega), so I didn't drive it much. But I would never claim "it was not", .. or that it didn't exist! .. I wish it didn't, but that's not the same.

This is what I've been trying to Convey to Coveny, that not believing in something is still faith, or "belief", .. but it doesn't mean that whatever you don't believe in doesn't exist.

But atheism claims both, that they have no "belief/faith" AND that something they can see, and even buy does not exist either???

Allow me to clarify as you're taking my statement out of the context in which it was intended; it is the same thing to not believe something exists as it is to believe something does not exist.

CYDdharta

Erfisflat said:

As currently, there is no (accepted) proof of or against the Creator, one must believe either what the scientists say, or what the theist says. Either way, you believe what somebody says, ergo, you have a belief system.

Do scientists comment on such matters in their position as scientists, or are the comments coming from theists and anti-theists, some of whom work as scientists?  Not that it matters for the discussion at hand; you're right, it takes a lot of faith to be an atheist.

JoePineapples

CYDdharta said:

Evidence said: 

@CYDdharta said: It is the same thing to not believe something as it is to believe something is not.

How is that? I mean you could tell me a story that I would not believe, .. but I wouldn't say your story didn't exist?

I had an old car that I didn't believe in (1972 Chevy Vega), so I didn't drive it much. But I would never claim "it was not", .. or that it didn't exist! .. I wish it didn't, but that's not the same.

This is what I've been trying to Convey to Coveny, that not believing in something is still faith, or "belief", .. but it doesn't mean that whatever you don't believe in doesn't exist.

But atheism claims both, that they have no "belief/faith" AND that something they can see, and even buy does not exist either???

Allow me to clarify as you're taking my statement out of the context in which it was intended; it is the same thing to not believe something exists as it is to believe something does not exist.

No, it's not the same at all. Absence of belief is not belief of absence.
Does not having a dog mean that you have a cat?

CYDdharta

JoePineapples said:

No, it's not the same at all. Absence of belief is not belief of absence.
Does not having a dog mean that you have a cat?

That's why I clarified.  If you do not believe you have a dog, its the same as believing you do not have a dog.  Atheist isn't simply absence of belief, it is denying or disbelieving.

JoePineapples

CYDdharta said:

JoePineapples said:

No, it's not the same at all. Absence of belief is not belief of absence.
Does not having a dog mean that you have a cat?

That's why I clarified.  If you do not believe you have a dog, its the same as believing you do not have a dog.  Atheist isn't simply absence of belief, it is denying or disbelieving.

I've actually used that example before, let's try a real-time test of it:
Do you believe that I have a dog?

CYDdharta

JoePineapples said:

I've actually used that example before, let's try a real-time test of it:
Do you believe that I have a dog?

I have no idea; you are as likely to have a dog as to not have a dog.

JoePineapples

CYDdharta said:

JoePineapples said:

I've actually used that example before, let's try a real-time test of it:
Do you believe that I have a dog?

I have no idea; you are as likely to have a dog as to not have a dog.

..which is no indication on what you do or don't believe about it. The question isn't "do you have any idea about me having a dog?", the question is "do you believe I have a dog?".
A belief is a conviction, something you've been convinced of or accepted as truth. Could you answer the question please?

Erfisflat

JoePineapples said:

CYDdharta said:

JoePineapples said:

I've actually used that example before, let's try a real-time test of it:
Do you believe that I have a dog?

I have no idea; you are as likely to have a dog as to not have a dog.

..which is no indication on what you do or don't believe about it. The question isn't "do you have any idea about me having a dog?", the question is "do you believe I have a dog?".
A belief is a conviction, something you've been convinced of or accepted as truth. Could you answer the question please?

youve offered no evidence to base the reasoning on enough to make any decision on what he believes.

Erfisflat

Where is the "been convinced of or accepted as truth"?

CYDdharta

JoePineapples said:

..which is no indication on what you do or don't believe about it. The question isn't "do you have any idea about me having a dog?", the question is "do you believe I have a dog?".
A belief is a conviction, something you've been convinced of or accepted as truth. Could you answer the question please?

How can I be convinced of something without proof, or at least very compelling evidence?  I believe neither that you have a dog nor that you have no dog. 

Coveny

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

Ok then why don't they define atheist as "a believe god(s) don't exist"? Why is there a difference in the phrasing, if what you say is correct, and they mean the same thing? They are worded differently because they have different meanings. So go ahead... explain it to me.

They do, that's what denying or disbelieving in one's existence means.  Disbelief and denial are synonyms.

Answer the question They define theist as "a believe god(s) exist", so if you are correct why don't they define atheist as "a believe god(s) don't exist"?

Evidence

JoePineapples said:

@Evidence
You appear to be very confused about the difference between believing in the existence of gods and believing in the concept of gods.

Yo Joe, OK, so let's see:

Concept:
* an abstract idea; a general notion
* an idea or invention to help sell or publicize a commodity.

Here are some gods for sale,
https://www.google.com/search?q=bronze+or+wooden+gods+for+sale&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDp-DjrefWAhXBwlQKHWw5BtEQsxgIKQ&biw=1422&bih=689

unless you have a different god "concepts" in mind? Tell us about it?

Coveny

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

I did get it right. They don't believe, or DISBELIEVE the existence of a supreme being(s), and doesn't state or imply that you don't believe in anything. Go away liar...

Disbelieving doesn't mean simply not believing, it means to reject belief in something.  People never say "I disbelieve I'll have the chicken cobb salad", that doesn't make any sense.  They may say "I don't believe I'll have the chicken cobb salad".  There is a difference in meaning between the two statements.  You've been wrong from the start of the debate; it's well past the time to just admit you're wrong and move on.

And yet that is exactly how it is worded when you look up the definition of atheist. "I disbelieve I'll have the god(s)". 

Tell you what let's define disbelieve... maybe that will help:
Webster - to hold not worthy of belief
Dictionary - to have no belief in
Oxford - Be unable to believe
Free Dictionary - To refuse to believe or accept; reject

Look I enjoy a semantics debate more than most, but you can't make words mean what you want them to mean just because you want to change reality. An athiest is not someone who holds a belief, it is someone who rejects a belief others believe. It is a null value. It is not a belief system. It is not a claim.

Coveny

Erfisflat said:

As currently, there is no (accepted) proof of or against the Creator, one must believe either what the scientists say, or what the theist says. Either way, you believe what somebody says, ergo, you have a belief system.

Not true. A person could believe in neither theist or science. You present a false dichotomy fallacy.

Evidence

@Coveny - Theists believe in an uncreated creator. What do you believe in @Evidence ?

Now your talking. Can you explain/define this "uncreated creator" that theists believe in?
Thanks buddy. Love you man, ...

CYDdharta

Coveny said:

Answer the question They define theist as "a believe god(s) exist", so if you are correct why don't they define atheist as "a believe god(s) don't exist"?

I did answer the question.  You're still having reading comprehension problems I see;

CYDdharta said:

They do, that's what denying or disbelieving in one's existence means.  Disbelief and denial are synonyms.

Coveny

JoePineapples said:

CYDdharta said:

JoePineapples said:

No, it's not the same at all. Absence of belief is not belief of absence.
Does not having a dog mean that you have a cat?

That's why I clarified.  If you do not believe you have a dog, its the same as believing you do not have a dog.  Atheist isn't simply absence of belief, it is denying or disbelieving.

I've actually used that example before, let's try a real-time test of it:
Do you believe that I have a dog?

ROFL. I love it Joe. The responses were awesome! Sure sounds like Cydharta finally understands the difference between atheist and agnostic!

Well done sir... well done!!!

Coveny

Erfisflat said:

JoePineapples said:

CYDdharta said:

JoePineapples said:

I've actually used that example before, let's try a real-time test of it:
Do you believe that I have a dog?

I have no idea; you are as likely to have a dog as to not have a dog.

..which is no indication on what you do or don't believe about it. The question isn't "do you have any idea about me having a dog?", the question is "do you believe I have a dog?".
A belief is a conviction, something you've been convinced of or accepted as truth. Could you answer the question please?

youve offered no evidence to base the reasoning on enough to make any decision on what he believes.

No evidence... so you don't believe he has a dog you dogathiest. hehe (this is priceless)

Coveny

CYDdharta said:

JoePineapples said:

..which is no indication on what you do or don't believe about it. The question isn't "do you have any idea about me having a dog?", the question is "do you believe I have a dog?".
A belief is a conviction, something you've been convinced of or accepted as truth. Could you answer the question please?

How can I be convinced of something without proof, or at least very compelling evidence?  I believe neither that you have a dog nor that you have no dog. 

Yes you do understand the difference between atheist and agnostic... don't bring that up anymore mkay???

Coveny

Evidence said:

@Coveny - Theists believe in an uncreated creator. What do you believe in @Evidence ?

Now your talking. Can you explain/define this "uncreated creator" that theists believe in?
Thanks buddy. Love you man, ...

It was your words from an earlier debate, it's in line with your "infinite eternal I am" god who's not a god because he's not in religion even though he's in the bible and many religions are based off the bible stuff. Theist believe in a creator of the universe, atheist don't.

CYDdharta

Coveny said:

Yes you do understand the difference between atheist and agnostic... don't bring that up anymore mkay???

WTF are you going on about???  I always did understand the difference; you, however, still don't seem to understand the concept of atheism, even though you claim to be one.

Coveny

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

Answer the question They define theist as "a believe god(s) exist", so if you are correct why don't they define atheist as "a believe god(s) don't exist"?

I did answer the question.  You're still having reading comprehension problems I see;

CYDdharta said:

They do, that's what denying or disbelieving in one's existence means.  Disbelief and denial are synonyms.

No you didn't. The words denying and disbelieving are NOT the same as believe. Why aren't these the definitions?????

Theist - a belief in god(s)
Atheist - a belief that there are no god(s)

Instead they are defined as

Theist - a beliefe in god(s)
Atheist - a denying or disbelieving in god(s)

If denying and disbelieving are a belief of atheism as you claim why doesn't the definitions portray that? Answer the question...

CYDdharta

Coveny said:

No evidence... so you don't believe he has a dog you dogathiest. hehe (this is priceless)

You still don't get it.  That would make him more of a dognostic, not a dogatheist.  Maybe you should move on to something easier.

Coveny

CYDdharta said:

Coveny said:

No evidence... so you don't believe he has a dog you dogathiest. hehe (this is priceless)

You still don't get it.  That would make him more of a dognostic, not a dogatheist.  Maybe you should move on to something easier.

Oh priceless... Just priceless. The irony it's so funny. A bunch of theists using atheist logic and reasoning because the use of a dog bypassed their cognitive bias. ROFL

CYDdharta

Coveny said:

Oh priceless... Just priceless. The irony it's so funny. A bunch of theists using atheist logic and reasoning because the use of a dog bypassed their cognitive bias. ROFL

It has been funny; watching an "atheist" who doesn't know what the term atheism means use it incorrectly to describe himself then try to jeer at the people who do understand the concept.

Evidence

@Coveny - Don't want to go down this road with you AGAIN @Evidence. I read about fictional characters like Harry Potter but I don't believe they exist. You should go to your nearest mental health facility and tell the doctors that you believe Harry Potter exists. It should give you plenty of people to chat with after that.

https://www.ebay.com/i/263224756943?chn=ps&dispItem=1
Do you still DENY that Harry Potter exist or not?

Coveny - Again if you believe in a creator, then you are a theist.

Depends on the creator. The theists believe in all kinds of creators, not one of them is our Infinite and Eternal Creator "I Am", and I can prove it!?

Coveny - If you believe/worship yahweh then you are NO different than millions of other theists who worship yahweh from the bible regardless of if you define yahweh as "infinite, Eternal creative mind/spirit I am". I'm not buying your theist BS, your religion is no different and certainly not any better than any of the other 3,000 that are out there.

Of course you don't "believe" in what I tell you, because your "belief" is based on Religious indoctrinations, so when the Pope says God is a plastic/wood theos god, then that's what you will stay believing.

It's no use talking to such blind faithed religious people since they all put their religion before using their mind/spirit. Now go run and read your nonexistent Harry Potter books and see what the nonexistent  Harry Potter is doing? lol

Evidence

Erfisflat said:

As currently, there is no (accepted) proof of or against the Creator, one must believe either what the scientists say, or what the theist says. Either way, you believe what somebody says, ergo, you have a belief system.

LOL, I see Coveny X'd you out. Seems he doesn't "believe" he has a "belief" system? lol