Socialism
in Economy

DrCereal · October 2017

The definition of Socialism used here will be: Democratic and collective ownership of capital, property, and the means of production.

If you care to know (i.e., if you wish to properly refute my personal beliefs), the form of Socialism I advocate is Fabian Socialism, particularly in the form of a cooperative economy.

Give your reasons for or against Socialism here.

joecavalry · October 2017

I believe that socialism is good, because of its great benefits. It helps everybody or a lot of people be possibly financially secure.

yolostide · October 2017

I believe that Socialism is not good. This does not possibly allow full independence for some if not all people and requires taxpayers to possibly pay for others.

DrCereal · October 2017

joecavalry said:

I believe that socialism is good, because of its great benefits. It helps everybody or a lot of people be possibly financially secure.

What do you mean by helping people be financially secure?

"I believe that Socialism is not good. This does not possibly allow full independence for some if not all people and requires taxpayers to possibly pay for others. "
What does full independence require? Why does Socialism inhibit it?
Why would taxpayers have to pay for others?

Fascism · October 2017

Capitalist values and socialist values should be mixed. Too much of anything is bad.

What policies do you support in specific?

DrCereal · October 2017

Fascism said:

Capitalist values and socialist values should be mixed. Too much of anything is bad.

What policies do you support in specific?

I'm a Fabian Socialist. I believe in gradual reform through the democratic process with the goal of establishing either: a state-ran economy (I'm still iffy about this, but I'm still considering it.) or a cooperative economy (where cooperations and the like are not allowed).

For specific policies, I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the question.

Fascism · October 2017

@DrCereal
"For specific policies, I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the question."

For example:
Private businesses shouldn't be allowed
Progressive tax systems
free secondary education
authoritarianism

This is basically to understand exactly which type of socialism you support. Fabian socialism is broad and there might be too many misunderstandings and assumptions if I argue with you without knowing exactly what you believe in. I might even end up agreeing with many of your beliefs.

I support state-run economies. I call it a command economy, but they are the same thing. There shouldn't be too much of it, but at the right amount it is efficient.
I don't believe in a cooperative economy because the government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it. Also since people won't accept it easily, it will be hard to use gradual reform.

DrCereal · October 2017

Fascism said:

@DrCereal
"For specific policies, I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the question."

For example:
Private businesses shouldn't be allowed
Progressive tax systems
free secondary education
authoritarianism

This is basically to understand exactly which type of socialism you support. Fabian socialism is broad and there might be too many misunderstandings and assumptions if I argue with you without knowing exactly what you believe in. I might even end up agreeing with many of your beliefs.

I support state-run economies. I call it a command economy, but they are the same thing. There shouldn't be too much of it, but at the right amount it is efficient.
I don't believe in a cooperative economy because the government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it. Also since people won't accept it easily, it will be hard to use gradual reform.

Authoritarianism is not a policy.

"government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it."
I disagree because I'm pretty sure the government already has rules for how you set up a business. My view is that they implement one more: you must give fair democratic control to the workers you decide to hire (if you decide to hire workers).

"Also since people won't accept it easily, it will be hard to use gradual reform. "
That's a pretty large assumption to base your argument off of.

"Private businesses shouldn't be allowed"
I think I did say that I support this (as long as the business isn't a cooperative).

As for other policies such as taxes and education, they are irrelevant to the discussion. I support gradually implemented Socialism (i.e., what I have defined in my original post). The majority of policies are irrelevant to that statement.

Fascism · October 2017

@DrCereal

"Authoritarianism is not a policy."

Yes I know, but for my purposes I would have liked to know more about what you believed. Sorry for the weird wording, I couldn't really think of another way to say it.

""government would have to be too authoritarian to enforce it."
I disagree because I'm pretty sure the government already has rules for how you set up a business. My view is that they implement one more: you must give fair democratic control to the workers you decide to hire (if you decide to hire workers)."

I don't think I understood what cooperative economies are. Can you explain?

"As for other policies such as taxes and education, they are irrelevant to the discussion. I support gradually implemented Socialism (i.e., what I have defined in my original post). The majority of policies are irrelevant to that statement."

Well then, I don't really disagree with you then. I believe the world should gradually move towards more socialist values.

ViceRegent · November 2017

@DrCereal

Socialism is immoral because it is premised on theft and envy and give tyrannical powers to the state. But it is perfectly consistent for the atheist to hate freedom and demand enslavement by the state.

DrCereal · November 2017

ViceRegent said:

@DrCereal

Socialism is immoral because it is premised on theft and envy and give tyrannical powers to the state. But it is perfectly consistent for the atheist to hate freedom and demand enslavement by the state.

You seem to have ignored the definition I have provided for this discussion. Please leave.

ViceRegent · November 2017

I like exposing ignorance.

DrCereal · November 2017

ViceRegent said:

I like exposing ignorance.

Good on ya. I'm afraid that that's not what you have really been doing on this site so far.

Go to a different argument if you have nothing meaningful to say on this one.

ViceRegent · November 2017

Of course, the arrogant ignorant do not know when their ignorance has been exposed. But i do not expect much from a dude who plots to steal everything his neighbor worked for and who is too lazy to earn it himself.

DrCereal · November 2017

@ViceRegent
You have added nothing to the conversation. Kindly leave.

ViceRegent · November 2017

Nothing that an arrogant ignorant thief would accept anyway.

Nope · November 2017

ViceRegent If it is legal under the law I don't think it counts as steeling which means it is not theft.

Fascism · November 2017

@Nope
Yes it would be referred to as redistribution.

ViceRegent · November 2017

@Nope

In that case, Hitler did not murder a single Jew, since it was lawful under German law to take their lives. No, man does not define morality. To take that which is mine without my consent is stealing, no matter who or what says it is ok.

Nope · November 2017

ViceRegent Well he did not really kill Jews himself so yea he did not murder anyone. Technically he did not. So correct! And if you choose to use a different definition for stealing then OK.

ViceRegent · November 2017

@Nope

Don’t be obtuse. No one murdered any Jews, since it was lawful to slaughter them. And it is YOU who use the wrong definition of stealing. But I expect nothing less from those who cover their neighbor’s stuff.

ViceRegent · November 2017

Covet*

Nope · November 2017

ViceRegent I checked 5 dictionary sites before posting and I think I used a correct definition. What does that last part me? But we are getting of topic. I believe socialism can hold people back. Their is to much of a limit to how high quality life you can achieve nomatter how hard you work. I am not one how would like to live in a socialist society. : )

ViceRegent · November 2017

Tell me this “definition” that says ITV is no longer theft if it is the majority that wants to take what is yours?

Vaulk · November 2017

Nazi: A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nazi

Above is an example of the single most prominent instance of Socialism on the Planet Earth. In terms of sheer population numbers, impact, influence, capital gain, economic growth, power and control... the Nazi party is the prominent example in History. That's just about all that really "Needs" to be said about Socialism but I'm sure there are smaller and less significant examples of Socialism out there that have had marginal impact or influence in the world. This idea that "It's not fair because that wasn't TRUE _____(Fill in the blank)" is ridiculous. Just because someone hasn't come along with your perfect idea of a system of government and applied it in the way you want to see it applied doesn't mean that those who've tried and failed in the past are somehow just "Missing the mark" and that there's nothing wrong with that particular ideology.

Ampersand · November 2017

Vaulk said:

Nazi: A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nazi

Above is an example of the single most prominent instance of Socialism on the Planet Earth. In terms of sheer population numbers, impact, influence, capital gain, economic growth, power and control... the Nazi party is the prominent example in History. That's just about all that really "Needs" to be said about Socialism but I'm sure there are smaller and less significant examples of Socialism out there that have had marginal impact or influence in the world. This idea that "It's not fair because that wasn't TRUE _____(Fill in the blank)" is ridiculous. Just because someone hasn't come along with your perfect idea of a system of government and applied it in the way you want to see it applied doesn't mean that those who've tried and failed in the past are somehow just "Missing the mark" and that there's nothing wrong with that particular ideology.

Do you think the People's Democratic Republic of North Korea is actually a democratic republic too?

Hitler hated socialism and communism and many of his first victims were socialists and communists who have been part of the left-wing political parties opposing him. Left-wing socialist politics were actually very big at the time, hence Hitler's desire to call himself a socialist even if he didn't plan to carry out socialist policies.

If you can't actually put together a cogent argument against socialism "b-b-b-but Hitler" is a pretty poor substitute and insults the memory of those he killed specifically for being socialist.

ViceRegent · November 2017

A national socialist is not a socialist. ROFL.

Cogent argument against socialism? Easy. Freedom is better than tyranny.

Nope · November 2017

ViceRegent Who says socialism has to be tyrannical. How much freedom are you willing to give? Just some thought for food.

ViceRegent · November 2017

ROFL. This dude has no idea what socialism is. And I see no reason to gI’ve up any freedom.

Nope · November 2017

ViceRegent I asked home much freedom should you have not if you should give up freedom. The state as a hole does not need to be cruel and mean to it's citizens. Therefor it does not need to be tyrannical. : )

ViceRegent · November 2017

Tell me how your socialist state gets control of my property without tyranny? And I should have total freedom.

Nope · November 2017

ViceRegent Um.. That might interfere with my freedom of life if you wen't crazy. Or you might steel my things. Total freedom might be dangerous. Not everyone is nice. They can take your things with out being cruel.

ViceRegent · November 2017

I am not interested in your worthless opinions. Tell me how your socialist state gets control of my property with tyranny?

Nope · November 2017

ViceRegent But it could still be dangerous. Did you mean with out tyranny? If not then I guess people break down your house to get in and take your stuff and leave and put you in jail if you refuse to give them what they want. Plus their jail is the worst in the world.

ViceRegent · November 2017

Yes, without tyranny. Yes, when the state breaks into my home and steals my property, that is tyranny.

cheesycheese · October 2018

ViceRegent said:

Yes, without tyranny. Yes, when the state breaks into my home and steals my property, that is tyranny.

Look up democratic socialism

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Socialism
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