The best online Debate website - DebateIsland.com! The only Online Debate Website with Casual, Persuade Me, Formalish, and Formal Online Debate formats. We’re the Leading Online Debate website. Debate popular topics, Debate news, or Debate anything! Debate online for free!
What flaws are Feminist doing that give them a bad name?
in History
Debra AI Prediction
Arguments
  Considerate: 36%  
  Substantial: 25%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 92%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 7.68  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 97%  
  Learn More About Debra
First and second wave feminists actually fought for women's rights. Modern feminists, especially in western nations, will happy run over real victims (both male and female) and complain about trivial nonsense (such as men spreading their legs on the subway and people giving women compliments on the street) in order to keep their group influential, or sometimes they will take important gender neutral issues and try to turn it into a women's issue, like they're doing with domestic violence. Modern western feminism has nothing to do with women's rights
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit
  Considerate: 77%  
  Substantial: 81%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 99%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 13.14  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 86%  
  Learn More About Debra
While a majority of people don't know that about 1st and 2nd wave Feminism, you're very right. The initial pushes in the Feminist movement were amazing and actually brought about great changes...I'm honestly not sure what happened though. Today's feminism is absolutely atrocious and leads honest and impressionable people into mindless ideology about things that either aren't real or aren't really issues of gender inequality.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 79%  
  Substantial: 82%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 94%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.48  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 94%  
  Learn More About Debra
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit
  Considerate: 66%  
  Substantial: 89%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 96%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.9  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 97%  
  Learn More About Debra
@Vaulk I agree with what you said, but why did you give a fallacy to Kocop? What fallacy did he do?
  Considerate: 70%  
  Substantial: 67%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 92%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.14  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 80%  
  Learn More About Debra
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit
  Considerate: 88%  
  Substantial: 31%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 88%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.74  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 74%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 81%  
  Substantial: 14%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 50%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 6.64  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 75%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 83%  
  Substantial: 25%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.16  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 98%  
  Learn More About Debra
Yea not sure what happened there, I don't even recall trying to click status for the post. Apologies for the misclick.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 94%  
  Substantial: 31%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 87%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 6.16  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 50%  
  Learn More About Debra
I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face. Though there will certainly be issues with individual feminists, that is something applies to any large sub-section of society. Even beyond any problems people might have with their overall beliefs there are certainly issues with individual Americans, democrats, republicans, atheists, Christians, male-rights activists, etc, etc because any large group will have a certain percentage of people who are crazy, rude, criminal, etc. I don't have any reason to believe that objectional behaviour by individual feminists is any more frequent than objectional behaviour by members of any other group and if there is such evidence then certainly no-one in this thread has provided it.
If anything I'd take there being a thread like this where people just throw hateful claims at feminists without evidence as a sign of the support feminism needs rather than anything that detracts from my opinion of it.
  Considerate: 69%  
  Substantial: 96%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 93%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 13.12  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 96%  
  Learn More About Debra
As for stripping themselves naked, there are many videos online showing this:
https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&biw=1920&bih=973&tbm=vid&ei=LTkaWqzOA-uUjwS1gKroDA&q=feminist+stripping+protests&oq=feminist+stripping+protests&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1675.1675.0.2150.1.1.0.0.0.0.71.71.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.2PTRdLD5wCg
  Considerate: 69%  
  Substantial: 81%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 97%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 6.72  
  Sources: 1  
  Relevant (Beta): 83%  
  Learn More About Debra
Also I'm aware that some feminists strip naked, but that doesn't rebutt either of the two aspects that I feel were relevant to my comment there:
1) Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it. So for people like yourself who have criticised feminism as a movement/ideology it is not a pertinent area of criticism in the same way it is wrong to criticise fascists for being child molesters - despite the fact some fascists are child molesters..
2) It still doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong.
  Considerate: 61%  
  Substantial: 89%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 94%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.52  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 94%  
  Learn More About Debra
When I said "Modern feminism is nothing compared to feminism back then. If I am a feminist then I would concentrate on the Middle East instead of creating fake oppression in the USA like most modern feminists are doing," I did not criticize feminism as a whole. I criticized modern feminists. The individuals are what make up modern feminism, not the fundamental theory of feminism. I even implied that if feminists focused on more important things, then feminism might start having a good name again.
It's like saying: "The government is given a bad name because of the politicians." The concept of a government might be good, but the government as of now is bad because of the individuals.
"Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it. So for people like yourself who have criticised feminism as a movement/ideology it is not a pertinent area of criticism in the same way it is wrong to criticise fascists for being child molesters - despite the fact some fascists are child molesters.."
Yes that is true, but this is not the only thing individual feminists are doing wrong. One thing most of them do is only support one side in a rape accusation. They blindly believe the woman, but not the man. This is a serious issue which most feminists do.
"Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it. So for people like yourself who have criticised feminism as a movement/ideology it is not a pertinent area of criticism in the same way it is wrong to criticise fascists for being child molesters - despite the fact some fascists are child molesters..
2) It still doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong. "
Yes I agree. It doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong, but it does give a rationale to why it has a bad name. That was what the whole debate was about. It wasn't about whether feminism is right or wrong, it was about why people tend to view it negatively.
  Considerate: 73%  
  Substantial: 81%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 94%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.4  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 79%  
  Learn More About Debra
So when you specifically mentioned modern fiminism, I shouldn't have assumed you were talking about feminism in the modern day. How silly of me.
Also is you say that something is believed or done by most feminists, by definition that means that those beliefs or actions must represent if not all of feminism then at a very minimum mainstream feminism.
It's like saying: "The government is given a bad name because of the politicians." The concept of a government might be good, but the government as of now is bad because of the individuals.
Then allow me to clarify. I am defending not just feminism in general, but mainstream current feminism as it is practised. To put it another way, i don't just believe government as a general concept is good, I believe the government right now is good.
Yes that is true, but this is not the only thing individual feminists are doing wrong. One thing most of them do is only support one side in a rape accusation. They blindly believe the woman, but not the man. This is a serious issue which most feminists do.
Care to cite this? Otherwise this just seems to be another of these massive sweeping generalisations with no evidence to support it that I was criticising in my other post.
Yes I agree. It doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong, but it does give a rationale to why it has a bad name. That was what the whole debate was about. It wasn't about whether feminism is right or wrong, it was about why people tend to view it negatively.
That's semantics, you're just restating the point in different words. People will view it negatively because they feel it is in some way wrong, e.g. because it has flaws. Of course people's opinions aren't always good or right, so to assess if people are accurately viewing feminism negatively because of a genuine flaw, we will need to critically analyse the rationale, which gets us right back to where we were. So:
1) Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it. So for people like yourself who have criticised feminism as a movement/ideology it is not a pertinent area of criticism in the same way it is wrong to criticise fascists for being child molesters - despite the fact some fascists are child molesters..
2) It still doesn't give a rationale for why it's wrong.
  Considerate: 69%  
  Substantial: 89%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.42  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 68%  
  Learn More About Debra
"So when you specifically mentioned modern fiminism, I shouldn't have assumed you were talking about feminism in the modern day. How silly of me."
Yes, however, you claimed that feminism as a whole is good:
"I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face. "
But when talking about why feminism has received a bad name, we need to talk about the specific cases where feminists have gone wrong. This is why I specifically mentioned mainstream feminism as of today because that is the cause of feminism's bad name.
"Also is you say that something is believed or done by most feminists, by definition that means that those beliefs or actions must represent if not all of feminism then at a very minimum mainstream feminism."
Yes that is true. These are the feminists which brought feminism a bad name.
"Then allow me to clarify. I am defending not just feminism in general, but mainstream current feminism as it is practised. To put it another way, i don't just believe government as a general concept is good, I believe the government right now is good."
Your statement has confused me. Sorry about that:
"I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face. "
"That's semantics, you're just restating the point in different words. People will view it negatively because they feel it is in some way wrong, e.g. because it has flaws. Of course people's opinions aren't always good or right, so to assess if people are accurately viewing feminism negatively because of a genuine flaw, we will need to critically analyse the rationale, which gets us right back to where we were. So:"
People can also view it negatively if a small group of feminists do something wrong. It is part of human nature. This may be the wrong way to assess things, but that is just how humans assess some things.
Plus there are other things that many feminists do as a whole when it comes to mainstream feminism, such as the rape accusation example.
"Care to cite this? Otherwise this just seems to be another of these massive sweeping generalisations with no evidence to support it that I was criticising in my other post."
You have also made a generalization: "I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face."
Also your claim that "Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it." also is a generalization with no proof.
However, generalizations are why people tend to hate certain groups in the first place. But I will drop my generalization since it doesn't have proof.
Radical feminists distort the meaning of feminism and cause feminism to have a bad name.
https://today.yougov.com/news/2016/02/23/less-than-third-women-feminists/
As you can see, a considerable amount of people say they're not feminists because feminists are too extreme.
So since none of the previous generalizations had proof, I'll make a new claim which is backed. Feminism has a bad name because many feminists are radical.
radical - associated with political views, practices, and policies of extreme change
  Considerate: 66%  
  Substantial: 80%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 92%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.02  
  Sources: 1  
  Relevant (Beta): 37%  
  Learn More About Debra
While I'm not saying all feminists are like that, unfortunately many feminists are, and it is giving feminism a bad name. If you disagree with "Most" being like that, you can atleast admit "Some" are like that.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit
  Considerate: 61%  
  Substantial: 84%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 90%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.7  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
How many is "Some"? As stated previously:
Though there will certainly be issues with individual feminists, that is something applies to any large sub-section of society. Even beyond any problems people might have with their overall beliefs there are certainly issues with individual Americans, democrats, republicans, atheists, Christians, male-rights activists, etc, etc because any large group will have a certain percentage of people who are crazy, rude, criminal, etc. I don't have any reason to believe that objectional behaviour by individual feminists is any more frequent than objectional behaviour by members of any other group and if there is such evidence then certainly no-one in this thread has provided it.
  Considerate: 70%  
  Substantial: 90%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 91%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 13.4  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 95%  
  Learn More About Debra
So you aren't simply stating things about individual feminists and you ARE making sweeping claims against mainstream feminism as an ideology.
Your statement has confused me. Sorry about that:
In short, i support mainstream feminism.
Your analogy was "The government is given a bad name because of the politicians" which equals you potentially liking a different implementation of feminism but thinking it is ruined by the way feminists generally act.
My analogy is "The government is good even if people dislike it and the occasional politician is poor" which equals me liking the current modern version of feminism regardless of what an odd minority do.
People can also view it negatively if a small group of feminists do something wrong. It is part of human nature. This may be the wrong way to assess things, but that is just how humans assess some things.
But is that a flaw with feminism or just how people are? Can you think of any ideology of comparable size to feminism that you CAN'T point to a weird minority about? If it doesn't seem to be specific to feminism, that is not a flaw with feminism.
Plus there are other things that many feminists do as a whole when it comes to mainstream feminism, such as the rape accusation example.
Again, unevidenced.
You have also made a generalization: "I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face."
Also your claim that "Stripping naked is not a mainstream feminist action. only a tiny percentage of feminists do it." also is a generalization with no proof.
It's only appropriate to ask for evidence if you actually dispute a point and there is contention. Are you seriously suggesting, for instance, that the majority of feminists publicly strip naked as a form of protest?
Radical feminists distort the meaning of feminism and cause feminism to have a bad name.
https://today.yougov.com/news/2016/02/23/less-than-third-women-feminists/
As you can see, a considerable amount of people say they're not feminists because feminists are too extreme.
Argumentum ad populem. Just because people think it, that doesn't mean it matters.
That simple tells us people think something. It doesn't tell us what, if anything, feminism is doing wrong to cause that.
So since none of the previous generalizations had proof, I'll make a new claim which is backed. Feminism has a bad name because many feminists are radical.
radical - associated with political views, practices, and policies of extreme change
You say you're going to make a new claim which is backed - and then make a new claim with absolutely no backing. Showing that people think something is radical doesn't mean it is radical - that's an instance of a well known logical fallacy. Providing the definition of the word radical does not mean most feminists are radical either.
  Considerate: 70%  
  Substantial: 79%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 93%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.82  
  Sources: 2  
  Relevant (Beta): 38%  
  Learn More About Debra
"So you aren't simply stating things about individual feminists and you ARE making sweeping claims against mainstream feminism as an ideology."
Yes. Kind of like you making sweeping claims for mainstream feminism.
"In short, i support mainstream feminism.
Your analogy was "The government is given a bad name because of the politicians" which equals you potentially liking a different implementation of feminism but thinking it is ruined by the way feminists generally act.
My analogy is "The government is good even if people dislike it and the occasional politician is poor" which equals me liking the current modern version of feminism regardless of what an odd minority do."
"But is that a flaw with feminism or just how people are? Can you think of any ideology of comparable size to feminism that you CAN'T point to a weird minority about? If it doesn't seem to be specific to feminism, that is not a flaw with feminism."
It is a flaw with how people are. That's what this particular argument is about. My other statements later on are to show how modern feminism is flawed. I'm just trying to say that because of this flaw that people have, even if modern feminism was good, then pointing to a small minority to explain why people hate it is valid. That was the whole point of the debate in the first place, to explain why people have a negative view of feminism.
"It's only appropriate to ask for evidence if you actually dispute a point and there is contention. Are you seriously suggesting, for instance, that the majority of feminists publicly strip naked as a form of protest?"
No, but I dispute the point that "I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism as a whole. It supports equality and fights against disadvantages women face." Provide evidence for that, or drop it.
"Argumentum ad populem. Just because people think it, that doesn't mean it matters.
That simple tells us people think something. It doesn't tell us what, if anything, feminism is doing wrong to cause that."
"You say you're going to make a new claim which is backed - and then make a new claim with absolutely no backing. Showing that people think something is radical doesn't mean it is radical - that's an instance of a well known logical fallacy. Providing the definition of the word radical does not mean most feminists are radical either. "
Argumentum ad populum doesn't apply in this case because the definition of radical depends on what other people think.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/radical
Here is the full definition which I should have put from the start:
"3 a : very different from the usual or traditional : extreme
  Considerate: 76%  
  Substantial: 83%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 90%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.3  
  Sources: 2  
  Relevant (Beta): 54%  
  Learn More About Debra
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit
  Considerate: 9%  
  Substantial: 49%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 87%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.4  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 98%  
  Learn More About Debra
a) Prove that they constitute the majority of feminists
or
b) Explain why we should care if they constitute a minority, keeping in mind my point about how any reasonable sized group will attract a minority of deplorable types.
  Considerate: 79%  
  Substantial: 65%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 90%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 13.4  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 93%  
  Learn More About Debra
While it is possible to consider yourself a feminist and actually care about real womens issues, like the issues effecting women in Central Asia and the Middle East, the majority of feminists (or a sizeable minority, or a fringe group that is being associated with all feminists) seem to not. This is giving western feminist a bad rap into todays times.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit
  Considerate: 68%  
  Substantial: 58%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 93%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.5  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 75%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 78%  
  Substantial: 61%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 6.66  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 97%  
  Learn More About Debra
Answer:
1. Hiding the use of Planned Parenthood behind the idea that Women should have access to Women specific healthcare.
a. Planned Parenthood doesn't offer mammograms despite the huge wave of Feminist activists claiming that it does.
https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2012/10/why-planned-parenthood-wont-provide-mammograms
b. Planned Parenthood does not offer any prenatal care what-so-ever.
c. While planned parenthood does conduct screenings of vaginal tracts, a majority of this is done because of a medical requirement prior to conducting an Abortion.
http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/
http://studio.ndnmediaservices.com/washingtonexaminer?ndn.trackingGroup=91212&ndn.siteSection=91212_pp&ndn.videoId=32492587
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/08/12/for-planned-parenthood-abortion-stats-3-percent-and-94-percent-are-both-misleading/?utm_term=.28501e1f7b95
2. The ever-lasting "Wage gap" sob story.
a. The wage gap has been, long since its emergence, been debunked, disproven and labeled as a myth...google "Wage gap" and find the first suggestion to be the addition of "Myth" on the end.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#6b10c7042596
https://fee.org/articles/truth-and-myth-on-the-gender-pay-gap/
3. The general "Equality" rant.
a. When's the last time you ever heard about the issue of Men receiving on average 63% longer prison sentences than Women for the SAME crimes? Anyone? Women are also twice as likely to not receive ANY jail time even after conviction.
b. Every boy in America has a 1 in 5 chance of being prescribed a powerful schedule II psychotropic medication to calm his behavior as if there's something biologically wrong with him when he displays an inability to sit quietly or submissively in a classroom dominated by girls who will outperform him throughout his public education.
c. The U.S. has some really great social programs for Women and especially Women who have Children. These programs prevent any Woman, with the drive to seek them out, from suffering the depression of Homelessness. For Men however, there are rarely any such programs.
d. Over 40% of severe physical abuse/domestic violence victims are Men, yet 99.3% of shelters for these types of victims are reserved for Women only.
https://thoughtcatalog.com/janet-bloomfield/2014/06/350587/
http://www.batteredmen.com/NISVS.htm
https://thoughtcatalog.com/janet-bloomfield/2014/08/5-ways-society-discriminates-against-men/
So in conclusion, the issue facing the image of Feminism is that it appears to be disingenuous on the surface. When you think of Feminism, you think of Women at rallies shouting for the advocacy of Planned Parenthood, the destruction of the Wage Gap and for Equality. The problem is that these issues are deplorable focuses for a group intent of achieving better equality. This and the fact that it "Seems" to be that every time a camera gets pointed at a Feminist...it's always the angry one with a mohawk screaming at the top of her lungs about how she doesn't care what anyone says because she's a victim. lol, it's kind of like watching the news about a Tornado...they always find the most backwards ozark hillbilly to describe what happened for the viewers.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
  Considerate: 75%  
  Substantial: 87%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 90%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.08  
  Sources: 10  
  Relevant (Beta): 45%  
  Learn More About Debra