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The U.S. Constitution should never be changed.
in United States
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Hi Melef. If we agree that...
"The people, the president of the United States, law makers, etc. should be able to pass legislation, etc. to improve the United States of America."
... then wouldn't it hold true that if the majority of people in the U.S. wish a part(s) of the Constitution to be changed, then it should be changed because the constituion is for the people, and majority rule?
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
I friended myself!
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1) Grants immutability to a document written by flawed human beings who admitted that it was far from perfect
2) Treats the Constitution as, effectively, a perfect document with no flaws
For those of you who agree with this resolution, all of you presumably respect the amendments to the Constitution that came well after it was written. You accept that many of these amendments were positive changes to a document that was written in a very generalized manner, one that did not address key issues of morality that have since had to be addressed (slavery comes to mind). So I can't imagine that your goal is to treat the document as utterly perfect. The Constitution is not the Bible - it doesn't have its roots as some text written by a supposedly perfect being. I don't see why people romanticize the founders of this country to the degree that they do. Granted, many of the people involved in the founding of this country were great, but they were all far from perfect. To imagine that the Constitution is beyond reproach is to tell every other country that their legal documents are inherently flawed for not being like ours. To treat it as perfect is to pretend that no new moral issues should ever arise that require an amendment.
So, presumably, the people who are responding in the affirmative respect the fact that the Constitution is not perfect. Instead, they view this as an issue of foundations, where this document represents the core of what makes America a country, and therefore that its flaws are also a part of that core. The idea is also that we can effectively pass laws without changing the Constitution. I somewhat agree with the former statement, in that it is a key part of our history and that it represents something key to America as a result. The problem I have with both of these ideas is that it treats the country as remaining virtually identical to how it was in 1776. There are parts of the Constitution that bar the legislature from taking necessary action, and judges are often forced to make decisions based on that document, regardless of what other laws are passed. If the Constitution is the foundation of our country, then we need to recognize that we are no longer the same country we were all those years ago. We can respect the Constitution and our founders without enshrining this document as immutable. In fact, I would argue that we better respect both by making changes. We recognize that the steady progress of time and the resulting changes in attitudes actually matters. We treat our country as evolving instead of stagnating.
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https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/article-v.html
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The first ten amendments are still amendments, they weren't in the original constitution and the 27th amendment was actually submitted at the same time - it just took a lot longer to be ratified.
Also why would you be okay with getting rid of the ban on slavery (13th amendment) or ensuring both sexes have the right to vote (19th)?
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So, I stated this in my previous post, but will pose it directly to you as a question: why do you think the Amendments are so perfect that they should be utterly immutable?
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If you remove the foundation, does the building still stand?
If you knock out the supporting columns, will the roof not crush the walls?
If you take away the principle of ANYTHING...does the system survive?
Is there an example of this...anywhere? I'm not necessarily saying that there's not...I just can't think of one. What's one system you can name that was built upon a Principle that, when removed, still held strong?
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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I don't just mean today, I mean the history of US of A.
You talk of 'foundation' like it's somehow the Constitution. The constitution is something a bunch of powerful men mumbo jumbod to appease the masses of the time, don't come to me telling me it's some sacred document. Even the founding fathers in no shape or form claim it to be a sacred text.
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Who said anything about the constitution? Exactly who are you arguing against here? I'm not quite sure who he is...but he's not me, I never said that the constitution was the foundation of the United States and I wouldn't because it's not. Your powers of assumption are impressive to say the least...I've not seen quite a leap to conclusion of that magnitude in a long time.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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No, the constitution is the body and letter of law in the United States. The Declaration of Independence is the model for the freedoms and rights of everyone in America. It is the Principle, the fundamental ideology, the bedrock, the foundation, the support and the basis for the freedoms and rights of Americans. And while there are some legal provisions for foreign nationals visiting the United States...in actuality there are very few compared to what citizens have.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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Your other questions seem to push the impression that only one kind of removal exists, one that involves taking away an essential support structure and not replacing it. Sure, if you're talking about a building, removing the foundation would knock it down, even if you somehow have a backup foundation you want to slip in afterwards. But the reason it harms the building is because the old foundation cannot immediately be replaced with the new one, no matter how fast a construction crew you have. But a system, particularly a government, is different. You can remove or alter even a very substantial part of that government and immediately phase in a new part to replace it. But all of this assumes that whatever is being removed or altered is so fundamental that it forms a necessary support structure for said system.
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Many enlightened Americans and others view the constitution as something that needs updating and corrections that apply now for the good and benifit of American citizens , everything evolves and change's over time this needs to include the constitution
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You stated the first ten amendments should be protected. That is a strange and unusual distinction that I'm querying. Why only the first ten? If you think there is no clear and immediate need to repeal the second amendment and that's why you don't want it altered, do you think there is a clear and immediate need to re-institute slavery and that's why you don't want to extend the same protection to the thirteenth amendment that you want to extend to the first 10?
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There are a lot of excellent thoughts here. At this point, I feel that the constitution can be changed as it is a volume of laws set forth for the people. AND if the people so decide by majority, then it can be changed.
For example, the second amendment. Though I am in favour of firearms for many reasons, I feel that the constitution can be amended (changed) to better define what is reasonable for a person to possess and operate a firearm.
I get that it's there as a right to bear arms and that no infringement can occur on that right. But it can be amended so that the people can still have guns, but defined in such a way as to establish reasonable makes and models of firearms.
Think about it, if the government turned into a dictatorship or some other oppressive regime, the American people would simply rise again, and revolt as they have already proved they can do in the past. If those families that don't want guns now needed them during a time of revolt, they would find one in their hands during a time of revolution. Thats what happens in revolution. Oppressed people find a way.
In light of that, maybe ammed the 2nd to establish reasonable styles of firearms. If not change penalties to be extreme for misuse of firearms.
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I came to this debate wondering about the firearm problem that exists in the US. I broke it down in my mind and it always lead to the 2nd amendment debate. I wondered that if, by referendum, the people voted and wanted it changed, should it be changed? Sure... It should. But the people must vote and do it through referendum, not through politicians as they are always under the pressure of outside influence.
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The US has changed since the first "Landmark" ruling .... Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803)
The right for the general public to bear arms was affirmed in McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S.742 (2010)
Anyone who believes our Constitution remains dormant is sadly mistaken.
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I was very...very...VERY clear and concise with my questions being very specifically and exclusively relating to "Removal". At this point I'm at a loss for words as to how I might convey this better so that some of our fellow members aren't so confused. Or it could just be a case of "I didn't read it because I don't want to".
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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I completely forgot about the talking heads on the media. I stopped watching TV a while back. Once people realize that box is a brainwashing device, kicking the habit won't be hard.
http://www.psychmechanics.com/2015/03/how-tv-influences-your-mind-through.html?m=1
Still, if the powers that be had complete control, I wouldn't be able to communicate freely.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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For George Washington to have had the brilliance to create a democracy rather than a monarchy (the people were ready to elect him king), he did our country the greatest service he could have every given. Putting the power with the people and giving them a set of guidelines, being the Constitution, was a brilliant and selfless move by a man who made America what it is today.
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Nowadays, the US is the world's number one superpower, its relations with most countries are extremely friendly, and our technology evolves faster than we can keep up with it. While I do not think the Constitution should be changed right now (I do think there are controversial parts that could be reworked, but they are not critical), I would not go as far as to say that it will still be relevant, say, 500 years from now.
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You're also wrong about the date. The AR-15 was designed in 1956, and first overseas sales were in 1959. The first civilian sales in the US were in 1964.
You should heed Lord Palmerston's advice "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
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