racism is inherent in humans; we are born with it. Even animals are born with it. it predates humans; however let us walk into pre-history, back when the tribe was the important thing. any stranger or anyone different was a cause of concern. other people who were not of the tribe brought war, they stole resources, and brought disease. of course, as humans spread, they encountered many who were different and in order of self preservation of the family tribe would shun those who were different; even fighting with them. this eventually led to the type of racism we see today. even animals will abandon their young if they are born differently than the others. Some individuals will say I am not a racist, yet they bring color into play. For instance, assume a white person sees a black person climbing a tree. they will more-than likely tell others that they saw a black man climbing a tree, yet if it was a white person climbing the tree, they would simply say they saw a person climbing a tree. Yet what about my 8 year old son, he has many friends who are different. yes but in growing up with them, they are part of his tribe, they are not different to him. racism is inherent in humans. change my mind.
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With your tree example, I am a white person, and if I see someone climbing up a tree, I will say that it is a person climbing up a tree. I do not have the urge to describe the person further, since what matters to me is that they climbed up a tree, and "who" climbed up a tree is irrelevant to the discussion.
Besides, there is a difference between paying attention to one's race and being a racist. Being a racist means that you believe that some races are inferior to some other races. Simply stating that there are different races with different statistical distributions, or that a given person is of a given race, is not racism.
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I disagree that humans or animals are inherently racist... Racism is a learned behavior, it is something that is taught, either consciously or not...
Animals do not even have the ability to conceptualize racism.
Now, if you're saying that humans and animals are born with the ability to discriminate, then yes but not all discrimination is racism... Every choice one makes follows a sequence of discrimination until there is only 1 option left.
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My reply .....You base this assertion on what exactly?
You say .....Even animals are born with it.
My reply ..... That statement is nonsense animals do not recognize race
You say .....it predates humans; however let us walk into pre-history, back when the tribe was the important thing. any stranger or anyone different was a cause of concern. other people who were not of the tribe brought war, they stole resources, and brought disease. of course, as humans spread, they encountered many who were different and in order of self preservation of the family tribe would shun those who were different; even fighting with them
My reply .....If one’s tribe is being attacked one tries to defend against such attack race doesn’t come into it as it’s defensive and nothing else
. You say .....this eventually led to the type of racism we see today.
My reply .....Another assertion without proof
You say ..... even animals will abandon their young if they are born differently than the others.
My reply .....What’s that got to do with racism if true?
You say .....Some individuals will say I am not a racist, yet they bring color into play. For instance, assume a white person sees a black person climbing a tree. they will more-than likely tell others that they saw a black man climbing a tree, yet if it was a white person climbing the tree, they would simply say they saw a person climbing a tree.
...... For instance, assume a white person sees a black person climbing a tree. they will more-than likely tell others that they saw a black man climbing a tree, yet if it was a white person climbing the tree, they would simply say they saw a person climbing a tree.
My reply ....... For instance, assume a black person sees a white person climbing a tree. they will more-than likely tell others that they saw a white man climbing a tree, yet if it was a black person climbing the tree, they would simply say they saw a person climbing a tree.
This is using your example so are both groups racist?
You say ......Yet what about my 8 year old son, he has many friends who are different. yes but in growing up with them, they are part of his tribe, they are not different to him. racism is inherent in humans. change my mind.
My reply .....There are indeed what’s called racists in every society ,so what? I don’t believe it’s inherent in humans you have yet to make a case demonstrating such
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For sure, racism is learned, or the result of bad experiences with a certain human (or animal) entity. Certainly if you are white and are frightened by someone black, or vice-versa, you may very well hold that against the "race". If you are frightened by a dog, you may hold that against all dogs …. because you learned, or taught yourself, to do that.
I hate to bring religion into everything, but, the same applies to them. How many "Christian Americans" are grouping all Muslims together as evil, because some of them are "frightening" (and vice-versa)?? One "tribe" hates the other. It's not because they have necessarily done something to you personally, it's the whole "tribe", and you have LEARNED that they may be different and dangerous. Racism is learned. When we become completely "mixed", there will be no "racial" racism. With religion, it's different. As long as there are "different gods" they will never "mix". The bad thing here is, the teaching and learning are constant. That can never be overcome. When we mix, from the beginning, racism CAN be overcome. Kids playing together don't see color … unless they are taught.
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Ummm, so we are genetically predisposed to being racist?!?!? First off, even if that were true, genetic predispositions in social characteristics are still a learned action that wasn't always inherent throughout the history of human kind. Also, those kind of predispositions in genetics are only theoretical, and there's no real proof it exists. But, you actually make a good argument that racism is something we're not born with, without you even realizing it.
---"any stranger or anyone different was a cause of concern."----
Why were they a cause of concern? Whatever answer that you or anybody could come up with here will stem from a learned phenom. For instance, ---"other people who were not of the tribe brought war"---. So the cause of concern here is because other people brought war, but we are not born with this knowledge that other people "bring war". We are taught this. This is a representation of a learned social "belief", not a natural knowledge that we were born with.
----"they stole resources, and brought disease".---- Again, these are also instances of learned social "beliefs". Just as children are not born with the knowledge to not play in traffic, they are not born with the "knowledge" to be concerned about people who are different.
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Thus, in times gone past, clever people created a class system which is based on the concept that other races are inferior. Now, if other races are inferior to your race, then, that gives you a moral right to treat other races like they are dumb animals. You can give them all the menial tasks to do, like housework, manual labour, digging holes, farming, washing clothes and cooking food. Thus, the rich and superior race will then have plenty of spare time to play sport, go hunting, see entertainment and go on holidays overseas.
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Racism is a product of a slave system economy. Humans are clever and can easily over-ride their instincts. Humans saw that other humans disliked strangers so clever humans found a way of putting that fear and hatred to good use. thus, people in positions of power would harness this fear for their own profit and advantage.
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Well' I'll be. I just got shunted.
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So a two year old can recognize differences, that doesn't prove they're racist. They can recognize the differences between dogs and humans too. Does that make them want to burn a cross and lynch dogs? Recognition of differences isn't automatically a racist trait. Racism needs to be taught to them. Self preservation isn't inherently racism either. Ourselves are the most important entities we know, and anyone else could potentially be a threat to you, including family members. If you have any evidence that racism is genetic, feel free to demonstrate that.
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Well, yeah, I have acknowledged that. But, if you had read my statement more carefully, you would have noticed that I stated that humans can over-ride instincts because they are clever. Thus, it doesn't matter if racism is instinctual because humans are capable of over coming it through the use of self control and group based morality. Not only can humans over-ride racism through mind control they can manipulate it in others to their own advantage.
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I fail to see how you got the words "frustration", "fear", or "anger" out of the word racism. Racism is just a recognition that the human race is made up of separate races (which is scientifically false), and those terms you listed have nothing to do with it. That's just you projecting your empirical feelings onto the word. Actually, according to psychology, emotions are not genetically received, and racism isn't even an emotion, it's a learned social belief. There's evidence that we are born with the capacity of cognitive function, but emotions stem from environmental influences. One does indeed need a thinking skill to be racist. I'm not sure how the social actions of modern animals gives us a window into the natural makeup of modern humans. All we could possibly assess from animal behavior, is how or why animals act the way they do in a social manner. We still haven't seen any evidence from you that racism is practiced socially among animals, or that racism is genetic. Interesting topic none the less.
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I'm not sure which studies you're referring to. Studies have shown that babies younger than six months aren't even able to differentiate between races. This is clear evidence that racism is not something we're born with, it's a learned social belief. Any preference that infants older than six months show toward people of their own race has been shown to simply be a preference for familiarity, not outright racism though. That's why those same studies have shown that when babies are raised in an environment where they are exposed to people of other races everyday(parents of different races), they excel with cognitive skills. As far as "children bonding together to outcast an intruder", there's no evidence that those social behaviors were there when they were born. There's much evidence that those behaviors are learned.
We are born with the capacity to have emotions, but the emotions we get in certain situations are learned, and not everyone will react the same in those circumstances. Just because we are born with the capacity for emotions, doesn't mean that we are genetically pre-disposed to feeling the way we do in any given situation. Also, we are not controlled by our emotions, we are only influenced by them. In some circumstances, we can feel two or more opposing emotions which will cause us to betray one of those emotions, no matter what we do. If my house was burning down, my fear of burning would stop me from going in to save my stuff, but if my dogs were still inside, my fear of knowing they will suffer and I will no longer have them will override my feelings of self preservation, so I will betray my feelings of self preservation, to save my dogs. I also may chicken out, and not be able to save them, so my feelings of fear for myself will override my feelings of sadness for my loss and their suffering and I will betray my feelings of sadness for my dogs (I don't actually have dogs, so that will not happen if my house burns down). We aren't controlled by our emotions, and our emotions aren't governed by our genetic makeup. Our emotions of self preservation or fear are not racism, it's just a natural want to not get hurt or die. The racist side of those emotions are propagated on us by social beliefs, not our genetic makeup.
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We have no choice but to work with a common definition or else we cannot debate coherently... Racism is a belief, belief implies thought processes otherwise it's not a belief... And thought processes are not genetically determined.
Racism is a very specific form of discrimination, like the US dollar is a very specific form of currency...
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Oooops, I forgot this little bit too. The word racism, is just a word that we use in society. It's a social construct. It isn't any kind of indicator of the inner workings of racism, or what causes racism, or if we are inherently racist at birth. It's just a word.
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"Racism", as we know it today is a psuedo-scientific belief that the human race is made up of separate races. The idea of separate races in terms of genetics, cannot have predated 1905. If what you're actually talking about is discrimination, and prejudice based on the color of a persons skin, I also don't see how that could have predated humans. If we go back far enough, we'll find that all humans lived in Africa. If all humans lived in Africa, all humans were relatively the same color. If we go back even further, to when humans first stepped out of the trees, there's genetic evidence that the human population dwindled to its lowest numbers in human history. Possibly less than 100. If the human population was that small, I'm not sure what genetic differences, or even visual differences there would have existed to discriminate against. I'm not sure of what evidence you're talking about that goes back as far as we can see that racism existed. You'll have to produce evidence for us on that one.
I live with people who have different color skin than I do, so no, I wouldn't instinctively pause. I would only instinctively pause if I saw someone I didn't know, even if they were the same color as me.
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Ummmm, so if humans bred with other races, that doesn't seem very racist to me. I mean, maybe they were into some kinda freaky hate sex, but I'm not feelin' it.
I think your argument is derailing a little bit now. Your arguing from a collectivist point of view, but we are individuals. We can identify as a member of a race, or social grouping, or tribe, but we are individuals within those groups. Those groupings are only a social construct, they are not backed by any scientific evidence. Genetically, a white person can have more in common with an African person than their white neighbors. Race is not backed by any real science. It's a social construction only. All differences in skin color are just variations of the genes in skin color that are found in Africa. Humans are made of one race only, the human race. I don't think racism has anything to do with nationalism, it's simply just the recognition of different races, which don't actually exist.
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If you're talking about "scientific racism", it would have to had come about after the discovery of genes. Before that, there was no concept of race, it was just cultural discrimination, or prejudice against people with different skin color. The other types of discrimination probably has nothing to do with race, and we can't know for sure if any of it was based of visual differences. It was probably discrimination based on skepticism of people from other tribes. We aren't even aware if early human tribes were even aware of other tribes that were so geographically distant that they would have had obvious visual differences. As far as the other human species, I'm sure their was discrimination amongst each other. But even you pointed out that the species of human that we are today mated with other human species, so some sort of acceptance of other species must have taken place. But as far as your original proposition on whether we are born racists, I don't think science or social or historical evidence shows that to be true.
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Although, in all fairness, if discrimination and prejudice were apart of human history, probably even dating back further than written history, you may have a sliver of an argument. I pointed out earlier that we are born with cognitive skills to be able to learn language. That skill is not taught, but if we go back beyond human history, to our very distant animal relatives, the art of speech may not have been present. I mean, logically, if we go back far enough to when we were still just one celled organisms, language certainly was not present. But yet we have a cognitive skill of speech recognition before we're born. How did it get there? Over many millions of years, language must have become a part of our genome, therefore it caused us to be genetically predisposed to the skill of learning it. If that is true, maybe prejudices have influenced our genome. This could shift this discussion to a nature vs nurture kinda thing now. But that's only if you can prove that discrimination has been so deep seated in our history that it's actually influenced our genetic makeup. The ball is in your court now maxx
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IN THE FIRST half of the 19th century, one of America’s most prominent scientists was a doctor named Samuel Morton. Morton lived in Philadelphia, and he collected skulls.
He wasn’t choosy about his suppliers. He accepted skulls scavenged from battlefields and snatched from catacombs. One of his most famous craniums belonged to an Irishman who’d been sent as a convict to Tasmania (and ultimately hanged for killing and eating other convicts). With each skull Morton performed the same procedure: He stuffed it with pepper seeds—later he switched to lead shot—which he then decanted to ascertain the volume of the braincase.
Morton believed that people could be divided into five races and that these represented separate acts of creation. The races had distinct characters, which corresponded to their place in a divinely determined hierarchy. Morton’s “craniometry” showed, he claimed, that whites, or “Caucasians,” were the most intelligent of the races. East Asians—Morton used the term “Mongolian”—though “ingenious” and “susceptible of cultivation,” were one step down. Next came Southeast Asians, followed by Native Americans. Blacks, or “Ethiopians,” were at the bottom. In the decades before the Civil War, Morton’s ideas were quickly taken up by the defenders of slavery.
“He had a lot of influence, particularly in the South,” says Paul Wolff Mitchell, an anthropologist at the University of Pennsylvania who is showing me the skull collection, now housed at the Penn Museum. We’re standing over the braincase of a particularly large-headed Dutchman who helped inflate Morton’s estimate of Caucasian capacities. When Morton died, in 1851, the Charleston Medical Journal in South Carolina praised him for “giving to the negro his true position as an inferior race.”
Today Morton is known as the father of scientific racism. So many of the horrors of the past few centuries can be traced to the idea that one race is inferior to another that a tour of his collection is a haunting experience. To an uncomfortable degree we still live with Morton’s legacy: Racial distinctions continue to shape our politics, our neighborhoods, and our sense of self.
This is the case even though what science actually has to tell us about race is just the opposite of what Morton contended.
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Well done, but you copied and pasted the whole thing. I actually posted this very article on a different debate here. But it's worth a read.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/
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Alcohol, cigarettes and drugs are not races, therefore you cannot be racist (discriminating based on race) toward people that drink, smoke or use drugs... It makes no sense to think so... You'd be "drinkist", "smokist" or "drugist" maybe but not racist... Words have precise meaning and a proper usage for a reason...
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They discriminate yes, but they do not discriminate BASED ON RACE, in these case they are discriminating based on what they drink or drug usage... It has nothing to do with race, therefore by definition it cannot be named racism...
Is English your first language? Not that it matters to the point, but debating will be difficult if you can't understand some fundamentals...
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I was asking a serious and legitimate question, I can't assume everyone is american, or their age, or sex or anything, it's the internet... It would be understandable to make mistakes when debating in a second language or even a 3rd, it's not demeaning at all... Linguistics is an essential part of argumentation, and linguistic structures are different from language to language, so translation mistake are common... It's just that it could explain why you still make the same mistake, post after post, after being shown your mistake but still using discrimination and racism as if they were interchangeable terms, they are not... It wasn't an insult, it was a legitimate question at this point in the debate...
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There are some differences between racism and prejudice or discrimination. The latter two are umbrella terms which racism would fall under, but discrimination over people who drink or smoke, is in no way racism. Someone can discriminate against anybody who drinks, no matter what color they are, or cultural heritage they stem from. People can discriminate against every living being if they feel fit, but racism is a specific kind of discrimination that only applies to race. It can be stretched to also be about cultural heritage, or religion, but by and large it really has to do race. Those other forms of discrimination aren't racism, it's just plain discrimination. There is one user on this site who gets SO worked up about people who drink or use drugs. I will not use this person's name because if s/he were to get involved in this, they'll constantly be replying to every single post I make, and this person is insanely annoying, and s/he only spews rhetorical nonsense, and doesn't understand when they've been shown to not have any logical ground to stand on, so they should just give up. But aside from all that unpleasantness, I don't think I could call them a straightforward racist just because they hate people who drink or use drugs.
As far as your argument on those supposed social rankings go, I think we pretty much covered that aspect of this discussion. There's no proof that infants under 6months old can even recognize racial differences, let alone discriminate. Fears about different people is unreliable as an indicator of racism at birth because tose fears may be social constructs, and fear, and anger, and hatred are emotions, and emotions don't absolutely control us, they only influenced us. So there's no psychological, or sociological proof that we're born racist.
Your argument that racism is genetic, can still be explored. Like I pointed out earlier, we may have cognitive functions before we're born, but they didn't just poof into existence. They probably got there from many years of evolution. This means that racism, or discrimination against people who are different, can't be ruled out as becoming, or already being a pre-learned phenomenon. If you can build on that aspect of this discussion, you may be able to come up with some interesting points.
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