Is Climate change total nonsense?
in Science

Akhenaten · June 2019

Climate change is a total nonsense. It is just a political game which is played by communist governments that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society.

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

Akhenaten said:

Climate change is a total nonsense. It is just a political game which is played by communist governments that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society.

If climate change is a political game like you said played by communist governments then surely the same argument could be made that the rejection of climate change is played by fascist governments?

Dee · June 2019

You say .....Climate change is a total nonsense.

My reply ....Because you say so , superb argument

You say .....It is just a political game which is played by communist governments

My reply .....Which governments can you name them?

You say ......that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society.

My reply ......Why do they want to disrupt and damage?

Akhenaten · June 2019

@ZeusAres42
You deal with the communist side and I'll deal with the capitalist side. That's called debate. Just stating that there are two sides to an argument is not going anywhere productive and is heading for a fast stalemate.

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

Akhenaten said:

@ZeusAres42
You deal with the communist side and I'll deal with the capitalist side. That's called debate. Just stating that there are two sides to an argument is not going anywhere productive and is heading for a fast stalemate.

Could you just give me a yes or no and then explain why to the question I just asked and then I'll be happy to move on:

Akhenaten said:

Climate change is a total nonsense. It is just a political game which is played by communist governments that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society.

If climate change is a political game like you said played by communist governments then surely the same argument could be made that the rejection of climate change is played by fascist governments?

Akhenaten · June 2019

@ZeusAres42

I never said the word "fascist". Thus, I can't reply to your question. I said "capitalist". which is very different to fascist. If the capitalist society has rejected climate change it is only because the evidence suggests that the climate is not changing. Thus, they are just stating the obvious and are not playing a political game.

linate · June 2019

@Akhenaten

there an almost unanimous consensus of scientists that think carbon dioxide is going the large majority of our warming. we have as much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than we've had for millions of years.

don't you think your unsubstantiated rants about climate change look pretty stupid when you consider the above premises?

Akhenaten · June 2019

@Dee

Why do they want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society ?

They see capitalism as a threat to communism. That's why. Communism has lots a perks and they can get cheap labour from people. You can put all the people who disagree with you into prison or have them executed etc.

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

Akhenaten said:

@ZeusAres42

I never said the word "fascist". Thus, I can't reply to your question. I said "capitalist". which is very different to fascist.

I know you didn't say "Fascist;" you said

Akhenaten said:
Climate change is a total nonsense. It is just a political game which is played by communist governments that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society.

Both communism and fascism are the two opposite extremes of government (both totalitarian). Your position is suggesting that the idea of climate change rests on a totalitarian form of government playing a political game. I'm just pointing out that by the same token someone could also claim that the rejection of climate change also rests on a totalitarian form of government playing a political game. Both claims/positions are, however, nothing short of absurdity.

If the capitalist society has rejected climate change it is only because the evidence suggests that the climate is not changing. Thus, they are just stating the obvious and are not playing a political game.

Now we're getting somewhere. So in other words, the conservatives/capitalists are the authority on whether or not the climate is changing, at least according to you right?

Akhenaten · June 2019

@ZeusAres42

The facts are that the climate is not changing. If any government says that it is, then, they are telling lies. I don't really care if they are fascists or communists. Note - You contradicted yourself. Fascism and communists can't be opposites if they are the same.

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

Akhenaten said:

@ZeusAres42

The facts are that the climate is not changing. If any government says that it is, then, they are telling lies. I don't really care if they are fascists or communists. Note - You contradicted yourself. Fascism and communists can't be opposites if they are the same.

You actually haven't really responded to what I said. Misrepresenting what I said and then trying to refute that misrepresentation doesn't really do much to advance your position.

TKDB · June 2019

The earth is 4.5 Billion years old.

Humanity has been walking the face of the earth for 315,000 years.

A computer, can't speak for what a scientist, or scientists program into it via their individual keyboards, to come up with a hypothetical situation, and expect others to view their findings as 100% fact?

As I expressed before, the earth is going to do what it does, when it does, and all humanity can consciously do, is adapt to what this planet does, as humanity coexists with it?

And live with the heat, the cold, the freezing, the flooding, the tsunamis, the earthquakes, and the nor'easters.

Climate Change, is but a perception from a group of individuals, and their views on a planet that is 4.5 Billion years, and try to understand it with their 315,000 years worth of human made limited knowledge?

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

@CYDdharta

If you call someone out on a fallacy then you need to be able to back that up and how it affects the validity of an argument. Otherwise you just like a person that is "fallacy caller happy" and with no positional advancement on your part whatsoever. Just the mere calling of "fallacy" is meaningless.

CYDdharta · June 2019

ZeusAres42 said:

@CYDdharta

If you call someone out on a fallacy then you need to be able to back that up and how it affects the validity of an argument. Otherwise you just like a person that is "fallacy caller happy" and with no positional advancement on your part whatsoever. Just the mere calling of "fallacy" is meaningless.

It's already been mentioned, but Fascism and Communism are hardly opposites, in fact the have much in common.

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

Akhenaten said:

Climate change is a total nonsense. It is just a political game which is played by communist governments that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society.

Ok, let's dissect this and put the argument in standard form:

Premise 1: Communist Governments want to disrupt and destroy the capitalist society.

Premise 2 (implied premise): Communist Governments support the idea that the climate is changing and it is something they push.

Conclusion: Therefore, climate change is nonsense.

As you can see, the conclusion does not logically follow on from the premises.

Likewise, the following argument from a person of the opposition would also be flawed:

Premise 1: Fascist Governments want to disrupt and damage the liberal/leftwing society.

Premise 2: Fascist Governments reject the idea of climate change

Conclusion: Therefore, the climate must be changing

Again, as you can see the conclusion does not follow logically from the given premises.

Akhenaten said:
The facts are that the climate is not changing. If any government says that it is, then, they are telling lies. I don't really care if they are fascists or communists. Note - You contradicted yourself. Fascism and communists can't be opposites if they are the same.

CYDdharta said:
It's already been mentioned, but Fascism and Communism are hardly opposites, in fact the have much in common.

Okay, without getting into a debate about semantics/linguistics I am sure we can agree that fascism and communism are two political extremes with one being the extreme version of the left (AKA far left) and the other being the extreme version of the right (AKA far right); that is how it is defined in Europe anyway. Also, note that I didn't contradict myself as I pointed out these are both forms of a totalitarian state. In terms of extremes, they are indeed opposites; in terms of similarities/commonalities, they are both forms of totalitarianism.

Now assuming that communism and fascism are in fact the same thing all that would imply is that I made a factual error; not an error in reasoning. The truth is however that both communism and fascism are two political extremes both with differences and commonalities.

Akhenaten · June 2019

@ZeusAres42

You obviously haven't studied the history behind communism and fascism. Otherwise, you would have known that communism and fascism was introduced by capitalists as a way of getting cheap labour in foreign countries like Russia and China. It is all about creating a slave labour environment. In the case of Germany 1930's, they used the Jews for manual labour and in the case of China and Russia they use their own people with a rigid class system and a false promise of a better future which.never eventuates. But I can see that you are trying to divert the debate away from climate change and into a debate about political definitions and history.

Akhenaten · June 2019

@ZeusAres42

Your conclusion - As you can see, the conclusion does not logically follow on from the premises.

My response - You haven't asked for or seen any evidence on this matter and you have already assumed that my premise is faulty.
Note - Your conclusion assumes that communist governments are logical organisations that wouldn't ever deceive anybody or do any harm.
Now, if we look at the person who started the climate change hysteria way back in 1972 was a person by the name of Maurice Strong.
Agenda 21.
Reference - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/paris-climate-change-conference/12035401/Farewell-to-the-man-who-invented-climate-change.html

Thus, we can see that climate change is just a deception created by communist sympathisers such as Maurice Strong.

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

@Akhenaten

Have you actually got anything in response to what I actually said rather than trying to refute a position that was never presented by me; just one made up by you?

I am going to infer that you don't as you've done this more than once now, and so this debate is becoming futile. And thus, we're done here.

Akhenaten · June 2019

@ZeusAres42

Oh, I have forced you to be honest and provide evidence. And now that I have provided evidence, you are no longer interested in playing the game. You should join your communist comrades in China.
Note - The title of the debate is about climate change and you have tried to derail the debate by turning it into a debate about political definitions and other pedantic nonsense.

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

@Akhenaten

You just love attacking that straw man don't you.

Akhenaten · June 2019

If only it was true. But, unfortunately, you are the one who created the red herring.

Image result for picture of red herring

Dee · June 2019

@Akhenaten

You say .....

They see capitalism as a threat to communism.

My reply .....Who are “they” which countries are claiming to be communist?

You say .....

That's why.

My reply .....Merely an assertion on your part with no proof

You say ..

...Communism has lots a perks and they can get cheap labour from people.

My reply .....And of course in capitalist systems there is no such thing as cheap labour, right?

You say ......You can put all the people who disagree with you into prison or have them executed etc.

My reply .....Name a country that’s doing this at the moment?

Akhenaten · June 2019

@Dee
List of countries that are currently under despotic dictatorship and severe censorship.

Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Azerbaijan
Bahrain, Belarus, Brunei, Burundi
Cambodia, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, China, Republic of Congo, Cuba
Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia
Gabon
Iran, Iraq
Kazakhstan
Laos, Libya
Mauritania
North Korea
Oman
Qatar
Russia, Rwanda
Saudi Arabia, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan, Swaziland, Syria
Tajikistan, Thailand, Tibet, Turkey, Turkmenistan
United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan
Venezuela, Vietnam
Western Sahara
Yemen
Zimbabwe

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

Dee said:

@Akhenaten

You say .....

They see capitalism as a threat to communism.

My reply .....Who are “they” which countries are claiming to be communist?

You say .....

That's why.

My reply .....Merely an assertion on your part with no proof

You say ..

...Communism has lots a perks and they can get cheap labour from people.

My reply .....And of course in capitalist systems there is no such thing as cheap labour, right?

You say ......You can put all the people who disagree with you into prison or have them executed etc.

My reply .....Name a country that’s doing this at the moment?

Good luck btw trying to have a debate with someone that obviously has an IQ only slightly higher than that of a chimpanzee.

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

Akhenaten said:

Climate change is a total nonsense. It is just a political game which is played by communist governments that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society.

Apparently, it's me that is engaged in a political nonsense debate. The irony; you can almost smell it.

The actual true and funny thing is that I haven't even presented any argument about whether it not I am for climate change yet. All I have done so far is just expose the nonsensical error in Akhenaten's argument quoted above.

But as usual Akhenaten continues to respond and argue with an imaginary opponent. Sad really.

Akhenaten · June 2019

@ZeusAres42

I know. A snake crawls low on the ground and never engages the enemy. They just flee when the going gets too tough. lol

John_C_87 · June 2019

Akhenaten said:

Climate change is a total nonsense. It is just a political game which is played by communist governments that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society.

Climate change is nothing more than a truth that does not state a whole truth. Global Warming, Climate change, and Human climate manipulation are not all equal truths to be told or explained in detail.

John_C_87 · June 2019

The most noted issue in climate change is the contradiction in the basic principle made by people who are stating a grievance publicly. Climates must change it is a normal process, a fact of science. Climates are being told that through carelessness of manufacturing and energy consumption people manipulate the temperature of our earth.

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

@John_C_87

Are you saying that while you agree that the climate is changing a lot of people tend to exaggerate it? If so, then that is at least a fair argument.

Akhenaten · June 2019

Time wasters paradise. Tick, tock, tick, tock.....................................zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

John_C_87 · June 2019

ZeusAres42 said:

@John_C_87

Are you saying that while you agree that the climate is changing a lot of people tend to exaggerate it? If so, then that is at least a fair argument.

There are two kinds of change manipulation and natural change, human manipulation presents a who truth and is not what is taking place with a topic which allows for natural changes to the environment to be included in debate.

Example: Presuming as united state there is a threat by human manipulation which posses danger. Is the threat of Co2 greater than Salt as any de -ice in the winter movers temperature by change? The science dictates the Salt as de-ice is a solid and exchanged fast change in temperature. Is there now a scientific contradiction that solids move heat slower faster a faster gas like Co2?

Akhenaten · June 2019

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Dee · June 2019

@Akhenaten

You said ......It’s a political game which is played by communist governments that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society.

My reply ......So countries like Western Sahara and Saudi Arabia are trying to spread communism to keep wages down?

You said .....Communism has lots a perks and they can get cheap labour from people.

My reply ......So oil rich Saudi Arabia are now communists who are attempting to disrupt our countries to get cheap labour?

You say ......List of countries that are currently under despotic dictatorship and severe censorship.

My reply ......I thought you said communist countries? It’s now communist and despotic countries pushing this horrific plan on the rest of us

Capitalist societies have plenty of available cheap labour they need why would communists want to disrupt to get what we already have , or do you deny this also?

Dee · June 2019

@ZeusAres42

You say ......Good luck btw trying to have a debate with someone that obviously has an IQ only slightly higher than that of a chimpanzee.

My reply ......That’s a grossly unfair comparison to the unfortunate chimpanzees

Akhenaten · June 2019

@Dee

Why don't you go read the agenda 21 documents and get yourself informed before shooting off your big mouth.
Capitalists get all their stuff manufactured in communist countries. They are not stupid.

Dee · June 2019

@Akhenaten

You say ......

Why don't you go read the agenda 21 documents and get yourself informed before shooting off your big mouth.

My reply .....I’m very well informed thank you. Thank you for informing me Saudi Arabia turned Communist overnight and are attempting to push communism on the U S to secure cheap labour , the news hasn’t broken here yet

You say .....Capitalists get all their stuff manufactured in communist countries. They are not stupid.

My reply ......Yet another claim without proof , so going on this latest contention the U S manufactures nothing it’s all made by communists who you claim are attempting to push this agenda on capitalists who already avail of cheap commie labour , so why would they need to push it?

Why are you not attacking capitalists for using cheap commie labour you Doofus

TKDB · June 2019

To the pro climate change individuals:

The earth is 4.5 Billion years old.

Humanity has been walking the face of the earth for 315,000 years.

A computer, can't speak for what a scientist, or scientists program into it via their individual keyboards, to come up with a hypothetical situation, and expect others to view their findings as 100% fact?

As I expressed before, the earth is going to do what it does, when it does, and all humanity can consciously do, is adapt to what this planet does, as humanity coexists with it?

And live with the heat, the cold, the freezing, the flooding, the tsunamis, the earthquakes, and the nor'easters.

Climate Change, is but a perception from a group of individuals, and their views on a planet that is 4.5 Billion years, and try to understand it with their 315,000 years worth of human made limited knowledge?

But to put humanity into perspective.
Just like with the inception of the computer and the internet, communication as we know it, changed, because man, in some situations, chose to change it, by placing an eletronic device between themselves and another?

A climate change, on how we communicate.

Akhenaten · June 2019

@Dee
Just go check all your consumer items where they were made. You will find that most were made in communist or other dictatorial countries.

Dee · June 2019

@Akhenaten

You say .......Just go check all your consumer items where they were made. You will find that most were made in communist or other dictatorial countries.

My reply .....You keep saying that yet, you keep saying that commies are trying to push their agenda on us to get cheap labour when all along it’s Capitalists exploiting commies by underpaying them , you are not very bright are you?

Akhenaten · June 2019

@Dee

This debate is about climate change. Yet you keep pushing the debate into further and further nonsense subjects until it becomes totally irrelevant. You are looking for the smallest/tiniest loop hole that you can find to squirm your way out of a stinky situation.
The important fact is that climate change is a deception which the rich/totalitarian elite wants to create a world government which undermines peoples freedom through the sneaky use of climate change as a red herring.
Just watch the agenda 21 documentary or take up knitting as a hobby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGCkSRXo-jk

Sharky · June 2019

Hi. This is my first post here and it appears I've stepped into a pretty lively argument that has devolved into some name-calling. Unfortunately it's also gotten away from the original premise of the debate; is climate change nonsense?

Climate change is not nonsense. Climate change is a fact that Earth has experienced long before we were ever here and that will continue long after we are gone. The real question we should be asking is; does the current observable climate change we are experiencing present an existential threat to humanity on Earth? Also, we should ask several other pertinent questions, namely; if the rate and trend of current climate change is particularly unusual and dangerous, what accounts for it and what would be the most effective approach to the problem- if one actually exists- that world governments could take? Also, if the issue is strictly one of science, why is it that the debate splits nearly perfectly along political lines?

My belief is that we are in the midst of an unusual climate event lasting about 30 or so years now. Part of it is likely due to human emissions but considering the tiny percentage of CO2 in our atmosphere that is attributable to human activities, it is highly unlikely that humans are on the verge of destroying the planet. It is estimated that mankind produces about .28% of all greenhouse gases produced on Earth, hardly the stuff of nightmare doomsday scenarios. Solar cycles are almost entirely ignored by climate alarmists. The fact is that when we experience the next great solar minimum, the entire AGW argument will necessarily fizzle into the dustbin of history. Remember that the great global cooling scare of the 1970's was also attributed to human pollution. How is it that the vaunted scientists of both eras are trying to have it both ways?

The average global temperature has risen about .8 degrees in the last 170 years. Those years have been marked by numerous, periodic spikes and plunges in temperatures. People have tended to predict that the end was near practically every time they happen. The likelihood that the recent warming trend is some looming catastrophe is infinitesimally small but that doesn't mean we should ignore it. If human pollution is contributing to the naturally occurring cycles of our climate, then we absolutely should address it, and we have.

Anyone of a certain age will remember how bad air and water pollution was back in the 50's and 60's. Automobiles spewed practically unmitigated leaded gasoline fumes and industries used rivers as sewers for toxic waste. Those days are over thanks to the cooperative and symbiotic efforts of both government and the private sector in developing pollution mitigation equipment and devices and mandating their use. We have a much cleaner environment as a result. Technology has advanced at an exponential rate in the last few decades. Our best hope for pollution mitigation is to incentivize the private sector to continue to develop practical and efficient clean energy AND to develop technologies that allow us to continue using our existing fossil fuels and the infrastructure built around them but to burn those fuels with drastically less emissions. Does anyone really believe we have advanced as far as possible in the technology of pollution mitigation? So, why do we never hear anyone involved in the AGW movement address clean-burning of fossil fuels?

Based on my observations of the AGW issue and the debate surrounding it over the last 30 years, it is clear that the global political left have seized upon the issue for political gain. While no one can discount or discredit all of the scientific findings on the issue, there have been far too many instances where the issue has been callously exploited to advance leftists' quest for power and control. People on the left frequently cite "scientific consensus" as proof of their hypothesis. No one ever seems to explain when "scientific consensus" became proof of anything, let alone an acceptable way to reach a conclusion using the scientific method. If "scientific consensus" is so compelling, why has the left resorted to a three-decade, non-stop barrage of hyperbole, propaganda, fear-mongering and outright lies to support their claims? Why have the predictions of their many computer models flamed out so spectacularly and repeatedly? Why have so many AGW proponents been quoted, saying openly that the climate change issue is NOT really about climate at all but about changing the socio-economic model used by the entire planet? And finally, why have those same AGW proponents relied almost exclusively on wildly ramped-up government control and massively higher taxes as their only "solution" to the problem?

It has become obvious to open-minded and well-informed observers that the climate change issue is being exploited to consolidate power and control and to divert trillions of dollars into the pockets of people who support the leftist power base. One need look no further than the Democrat Party, Al Gore, Tom Steyer, Elon Musk and the entire Silicon Valley.

Dee · June 2019

@Akhenaten

You say ......

This debate is about climate change. Yet you keep pushing the debate into further and further nonsense subjects until it becomes totally irrelevant. You are looking for the smallest/tiniest loop hole that you can find to squirm your way out of a stinky situation.

My reply ..... I know what’s it’s about it’s your conspiracy theory and you stated ......

It is just a political game which is played by communist governments that want to disrupt and damage the capitalist society........

My reply .....Yet you admitted that capitalists are exploiting communist workers and using them as cheap labour which is a total contradiction of your nonsense, you claimed oil rich Saudi Arabia was communist , everything you say is nonsense

You say ......

The important fact is that climate change is a deception which the rich/totalitarian elite wants to create a world government which undermines peoples freedom through the sneaky use of climate change as a red herring.

Just watch the agenda 21 documentary or take up knitting as a hobby.

My reply .....First you said it was a plot by communists now it’s the rich elite I actually think you’re mentally unbalanced

Akhenaten · June 2019

@Dee
You don't seem to understand that elite power bases are universal and just have different names but they all basically do the same thing which is undermine the middle classes which they see as a threat to their power and control.
It's like trying to educate a small child because you don't have any political education or knowledge of history.

Akhenaten · June 2019

@Sharky

Try reading the debate posts before posting stuff that may already have been mentioned. That way your post may have some relevance to the current discussions.

Dee · June 2019

@Akhenaten

You say .....

You don't seem to understand that elite power bases are universal and just have different names but they all basically do the same thing which is undermine the middle classes which they see as a threat to their power and control.

My reply .....

Utter nonsense

You say ......

It's like trying to educate a small child because you don't have any political education or knowledge of history.

My reply .....Several people on here have claimed you’re an idiot I think that’s insulting to idiots , you’re beyond idiocy

ZeusAres42 · June 2019

Dee said:

@Akhenaten

My reply .....Several people on here have claimed you’re an idiot I think that’s insulting to idiots , you’re beyond idiocy

Several people might have claimed this, but not as many times as Akhenaten implied it himself in comparison.

Sharky · June 2019

@Akhenaten

I did read the entire thread prior to posting. The problem is that several posters are getting way off the subject and resorting to name-calling instead of defending their arguments. Thanks, though.

Akhenaten · June 2019

@Sharky

They refuse to defend the facts about climate change and instead go for ridiculing the person. Thus, you can't have a decent debate on this site. Note - This site is full of left-wing deceitful and ignorant people. Warning - Don't expect to get a fair debate here.

Sharky · June 2019

@Akhenaten

True Believers have morphed into a band of religious fanatics and their beliefs are now based more on faith than on science. As you already know, debating religious fanatics is generally fruitless.

The mountain of evidence that has disproven the so-called "science" backing the AGW theory is completely ignored by everyone in their "movement". That's why none of them will ever actually answer the questions they're asked or they will parrot the stock talking points supplied by the political left and immediately follow on with Alinskyite name-calling and ridicule. That's how you know you're winning the "debate".

This is the same phenomenon you see with extreme leftists who advocate for socialism and communism. Despite the spectacular failure of leftist governments all over the world during the last century and the hundred million people that they murdered, far left radicals cling to Marxist principles as if they still have solid credibility. It's mind boggling and you have to wonder how any reasonably intelligent person can believe the things they do.

Akhenaten · June 2019

@Sharky

Have you studied the agenda 21 protocols?
They are planning to undermine democracy by creating international laws based on climate change principles. Thus, they can by-pass democratic processes like congress, parliament and local governments to implement draconian climate based emergency measures.
Thus, once they announce that the planet is in danger and needs to be protected from us polluting human beings you can be sure that human rights will be the first thing to go. Thus, the IPCC bureaucrats will ascend to power and take over the whole world and turn the world into a police state.

Sharky · June 2019

@Akhenaten

I am familiar with Agenda 21 but I never really studied it. My general belief is that More Government = Less Freedom and the rise of the globalist left is about as dangerous as anything in modern history. They are a seductive bunch with all of their promises to "take care" of everyone and everything. The only problem with that is that you only need to look at recent history to establish that they are completely incapable of delivering on any of the flowery promises they make. The only thing they ARE capable of accomplishing is subjugating the people who fall under their control.

I will never understand how there are SO many people in the world and in this country who are naive and gullible enough to be sucked in by the same false promises that Marxists have been making for over 170 years now. The only thing they've ever delivered is failure, oppression, misery and death.

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Is Climate change total nonsense?
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