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Suffice it to say, if a person enters your home for the purpose of harming you, you cannot reasonably expect the police to arrive in time to stop him. This is not the fault of the police—it is a problem of physics. https://samharris.org/the-riddle-of-the-gun/
Of course though, even better would be someone that is well versed in using a gun properly and has had some experience in the line of fire. Hence why I am also for armed guards in Schools but not for arming teachers.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: prolife         
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The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.
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You didn't, but I fail to see how this comment is relevant in this topic...
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"The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."
What if there isn't another citizen, with a gun to stop a criminal, or an offender, with a gun?
Does that maybe, make those victims irrelevant in regards to your pro gun question?
Does that make the Bill of Rights an irrelevant document, in the face of the Second Amendment itself?
Because there are more guns, in this country then there are innocent victims, and the police?
393 million guns, verses 325 million U.S. citizens, and 900,000 Police Officers?
Isn't a gun violence committed crime, by a first time offender, an offender, or criminal in general, are cruel and unusual punishments, towards their innocent victim, or victims?
Where is the fair and equal moment, in your unequal and unfair question?
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One can be pro-life and practice self-defense. In fact, self-defense is as pro-life as it gets. If someone needs to kill a criminal in order to keep from being killed, that does not mean they aren't pro-life; it means they didn't intend to allow someone else to kill them. Your comment makes no sense whatsoever.
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The scenario just posted is a typical pro gun argument which is weak to say the least , why not invest in a decent house
alarm instead we all have them over here?
I find it truly horrifying that Americans actually need armed guards at schools and are having a debate about arming schoolteachers what an appalling environment to bring up children.
My country is rated 4th most peaceful in the world America has a dreadful rating of 121st place. I often wonder if a country like mine introduced guns into society for all citizens how would benefit our society? Would death and accident rates go up or down?
Guns in society are to me regressive and divisive and not something I would want in any environment I wish to live in
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I agree. I would like this too but in a society that already has guns and that is gun crazy the only best way of defending yourself in an imminent situation is with a gun that you also possess yourself, know how to use safely and correctly.
The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.
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You say .......Yes, this is true and more could be done to reduce the gun violence in the states as well as other countries across the world for that matter.
My reply ......Yes note that we are talking about gun violence less guns in society and we will less gun violence
You say .......However, the argument is about the best way to stop a person with a gun in an imminent situation.
My reply .....And is this the best way a person mostly who has never used a gun discharging a weapon in his home or on the streets?
You say .......Did you read the whole article by Sam Harris by the way?
My reply ......I’ve read his views on the issue many times and find them unconvincing
You say .......Also, you're saying the scenario about stopping a bad person with a gun is a good guy with a gun is weak and a typical pro-gun argument right? Well, I'd have to contend just because it may be an argument by the pro-gun crowd does not mean it's weak or wrong.
My reply ......What makes it weak is the argument itself , that it’s a go to argument by the pro gun people must mean they think it’s actually a strong argument
You say ......As mentioned before you can't reasonably expect the police to always get there in time to save you in an imminent situation. Being armed, however, you do have at least half a chance.
My reply .....But again if it’s in your home why not have a house alarm? Normally at this stage a situation is invoked as in “what if the house alarm doesn’t work “ etc ,etc
Are citizens getting held up and threatened on the streets daily in America if not why do they need a gun?
You say ......I'd have to agree that arming teachers is ludicrous. Armed guards, however, is another matter. Also, in a country where this is not going away any time soon, this is all they have as a last resort of self-defense. It's not the perfect solution but it is a way of attempting to reduce further instances
My reply ......It’s tragic that it’s come to this in the U S
. You say ......All countries are different. We can only speculate here. Also, the mere fact of possessing a gun doesn't necessarily mean people will go on a rampage.
My reply .......No they may not go on a rampage although some do yearly but there is no doubt that death and accident rates go up in societies that allow citizens to carry guns
You say ........I agree. I would like this too but in a society that already has guns and that is gun crazy the only best way of defending yourself in an imminent situation is with a gun that you also possess yourself, know how to use safely and correctly.
My reply ......Yes well yous have your gun rights but yous pay a huge price for them in gun deaths and accidents and that’s never going to change .....
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: gun violence    best way   less guns   mere fact  
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I agree that if you own a gun it is your responsinility to learn and practice using it.
Cops are not always able to get to you in time. Alarm or not. Not everyone lives in a city where a cop is around the cornet. Where i live it's a toss up on how long it takes them. It can be up to 25 min on an emergency.
We had a situation here where the was a home invasion and all it took was the rifle (in this case) to be pointed at the invader to have him turn tail and run.
So as in this case s gun wasn't used but was enough to get the man out of thier house.
Most people, even gun owners, are not hot and heavy to kill people they just do it when they are given no other choice. Whether you chose to believe it or not most don't feel good about it when forced to make that choice
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: good people    home attacks   thier families   home invasion  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: gun    home   family   ou  
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My reply ......Yes note that we are talking about gun violence less guns in society and we will less gun violence."
I am not discussing gun violence in general. The only argument I am making is that the only way to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a good that knows how to use it, is trained and responsible. Hence, why in countries such as the UK where I'm from you have an armed response team in cases of armed situations. You cannot reasonably expect the police to tackle an armed assailent unarmed.
You say .......However, the argument is about the best way to stop a person with a gun in an imminent situation.
My reply .....And is this the best way a person mostly who has never used a gun discharging a weapon in his home or on the streets?
No, hence why I also said someone that is also trained, responsible and knows how to use a firearm.
"You say .......Also, you're saying the scenario about stopping a bad person with a gun is a good guy with a gun is weak and a typical pro-gun argument right? Well, I'd have to contend just because it may be an argument by the pro-gun crowd does not mean it's weak or wrong.
My reply ......What makes it weak is the argument itself , that it’s a go to argument by the pro gun people must mean they think it’s actually a strong argument"
Can you actually elaborate as to why it is weak at all assuming you still do? Also, what would you say would be a better solution in an imminent situation?
"You say ......As mentioned before you can't reasonably expect the police to always get there in time to save you in an imminent situation. Being armed, however, you do have at least half a chance.
My reply .....But again if it’s in your home why not have a house alarm? Normally at this stage a situation is invoked as in “what if the house alarm doesn’t work “ etc ,etc "
Assuming this particular scenario if the criminal is a professional that knows what they're doing the house alarm is going to be much of a deterrent, and they will most likely commit their crime way before the police arrive.
"Are citizens getting held up and threatened on the streets daily in America if not why do they need a gun?"
I wouldn't know if Americans are getting held up and threatened on a daily basis in the streets.
You say ......I'd have to agree that arming teachers is ludicrous. Armed guards, however, is another matter. Also, in a country where this is not going away any time soon, this is all they have as a last resort of self-defense. It's not the perfect solution but it is a way of attempting to reduce further instances
My reply ......It’s tragic that it’s come to this in the U S
Hence why I also said I'd prefer armed guards that know what they're doing and are used to being in the line of fire.
You say ........I agree. I would like this too but in a society that already has guns and that is gun crazy the only best way of defending yourself in an imminent situation is with a gun that you also possess yourself, know how to use safely and correctly.
My reply ......Yes well yous have your gun rights but yous pay a huge price for them in gun deaths and accidents and that’s never going to change .....
Firstly, I'm not American btw but It does make sense to me that the best way to defend against a gun is if you have a gun yourself. It also makes sense to have this in a country where firearm use isn't going away any time soon. It also makes sense to have this in a country where you already have load of gun nuts that could go on a rampage any minute. While it's not the nirvana solution it probably is the only viable option for the time being.
The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.
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I am not discussing gun violence in general. The only argument I am making is that the only way to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a good that knows how to use it, is trained and responsible. Hence, why in countries such as the UK where I'm from you have an armed response team in cases of armed situations. You cannot reasonably expect the police to tackle an armed assailent unarmed.
My reply ......
That’s fine. That’s assuming everyone is trained and responsible that’s a big ask isn’t it?
Also you will be taking that gun home and you’re now responsible for others in your home not having access to that gun and accidental gun deaths and accidents in the home.
I keep mentioning house alarms and no one pays any attention the last answer by another was “ what if it doesn’t work” .
One of the biggest deterrents to a burglar is a house alarm it’s your job to switch it on at night I’m doing so for 20 years and never once forgotten
You say .....Can you actually elaborate as to why it is weak at all assuming you still do? Also, what would you say would be a better solution in an imminent situation?
My reply .....It’s weak because it’s a total overreaction to a perceived threat .........there has been roughly 50 to 60 gun deathsa year in England and Wales, which have a population of 56 million.Feb 18, 2018.......
I got these stats online , now if one is to further this argument and enter the Into the equation home burglaries regarding guns the figures are minuscule , do you really think a gun is necessary for such a nearly impossible risk of gun death?
You say .......
Assuming this particular scenario if the criminal is a professional that knows what they're doing the house alarm is going to be much of a deterrent, and they will most likely commit their crime way before the police arrive.
My reply .....But modern house alarms an very effective and why would a professional target an ordinary Joe?
Surely a professional would know inside out what you have exactly in your house and it’s value, do you honestly think a pro would disarm and rob a house carrying a gun to get maybe a tv an I pad and assorted wallets and purses?
You say .....
I wouldn't know if Americans are getting held up and threatened on a daily basis in the streets.
My reply .....OK apply to to your country then?
You say .....
Firstly, I'm not American btw but It does make sense to me that the best way to defend against a gun is if you have a gun yourself. It also makes sense to have this in a country where firearm use isn't going away any time soon. It also makes sense to have this in a country where you already have load of gun nuts that could go on a rampage any minute. While it's not the nirvana solution it probably is the only viable option for the time being.
My reply .......Well if that’s the way you want your society there will be consequences consistent I would imagine with the American model , thankfully my country is Anti a position I would wish to hold as long as I’m around
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: gun violence    house alarms   only argument   good person  
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Some stats for you .......
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: subsequent firearm injury.Those people    United States   higher risk   percent die  
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I am aware of a lot of the statistics and the irresponsibility of some gun owners.
I don't diagree with having common since regulating laws.
I think they should run background checks through finger printing ran through a nationwide data base.
I don't disagree with the laws that temporarily remove guns from their owners when a psycologist, psychiatrist, or family member reports that they are a danger to themselves or others.
I believe there should be laws (for those with no practical since of thier own) that require guns to be locked up when there are children in the home.
I think that a person who is deemed dangerous by a psychiatrists or a psychologist should have the ability to tempotarily red flag someone on the national data base. I believe that if this measure is taken that a person should have the right to contest it.
It also wouldn't hurt to require a person to pass a gun saftey class before purchase.
With all that I agree that sometimes it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad one.
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If you want your guns there is a price to pay and a very costly one , but if your society is that dangerous to live in then I guess you’re making a wise choice
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"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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You say ......If you believe guns are bad, then how should people protect themselves when a threat is inside your home?
My reply ......Every American who debates this topic always mentions this , do Americans not have house alarms? I do and it’s never once failed. Also I’m curious do burglars in the U S risk a hefty prison term by disarming and breaking into the ordinary Joes home for a T V , laptop and maybe a wallet or purse?
You say .......Armed with something else besides a firearm? What will you do when the police are not fast enough to respond?
My reply .....I honestly feel for Americans if they are this insecure in their own homes that they need to be tooled up.
I live in a society where we or the police force do not carry guns we are rated 4th most peaceful country in the world , the U S is rated a disgraceful 121 first place , so do you think more guns or less guns would make your society more peaceful?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: U S risk    police force   hefty prison term   peaceful country  
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"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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You say.....Tooled up?
My reply ......Well owning 5 guns is tooled up wouldn’t you say? Lol
You say .......Its not the case of being ill or paranoid, but a sense of safety.
My reply .....Yes you live in a very unsafe society where in your own home you need 5 guns for protection if this is not the case you are indeed paranoid
You say ....You don't live here so you wouldn't have ANY idea of what it would be like.
My reply ......But I did live there and I do know what it’s like
You say .....Getting rid of firearms won't help,
My reply ....Of course how could no guns in a society be of any help
You say ....and since you continue to boast of how "peaceful" your country is, perhaps you may be inclined to name where you live so I can do research into the crime statistics of your country.
My reply ....I’m not boasting it’s a statement of fact , what has a gun free society like mine got to do with a debate regarding guns?
You say .....I own over five firearms, I'm not crazy. I have a loving family and friends, and I most certainly do not plan on committing mass murder. Perhaps your way of thinking is flawed and you do not know the importance of self-defense.
My reply ......I never said you were crazy or a bad family man and I never said you were planning mass murder.
My thinking is the opposite of flawed as I don’t live in a society where I need 5 guns just to feel safe , I can defend myself if needed , maybe you should plan a move to one of the 120 safer countries to live in where you will not need your 5 guns to feel safe
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"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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You say ..... I find that laughable. Not everyone is knowledged in hand-to-hand combat, and you never know what your opponent (intruder) may have on him that is capable of causing harm (sharp/blunt objects, knives/long bladed melee weapons)
My reply .....Well you would the thoughts of a society where one can go about without being attacked is normal here you find it “laughable”.
So the average American also has to be wary of being attacked by thugs brandishing Sharp/blunt objects knives,/long bladed melee weapons .....you need to move to a more peaceful country why not South Africa? It rates higher than the U S in world peace tables
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First, if you discount the gun violence that occurs in our inner cities and amongst gang members, the United States doesn't have much of a problem with gun violence or a murder rate that exceeds most of the rest of the world. Second, if gun control worked or was even remotely an answer to the problem of gun violence, American cities like Chicago, New York, Newark, Baltimore, etc. would be amongst the safest places in the country. Instead, the places with the strictest gun control laws are ironically the most dangerous places in the country.
Our problem is not guns. Our problem is dangerous people. Addressing the root causes of dangerous people and the potential solutions to the menace they present is a lot more complicated than focusing on guns, especially for Democrats. The people committing the overwhelming majority of gun crimes in America are constituents in overwhelmingly Democrat jurisdictions and the local governments dealing with the issue have been playing 'catch and release' with these people for decades. Until we get serious dealing with violent criminals, the problem of gun violence in America isn't going anywhere. Turning law-abiding citizens into criminals by criminalizing their guns will only make matters worse.
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@ZeusAres42
@CYDdharta
"The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."
What if there isn't another citizen, with a gun to stop a criminal, or an offender, with a gun?
Does that maybe, make those victims irrelevant in regards to your pro gun question?
Does that make the Bill of Rights an irrelevant document, in the face of the Second Amendment itself?
Because there are more guns, in this country then there are innocent victims, and the police?
393 million guns, verses 325 million U.S. citizens, and 900,000 Police Officers?
Isn't a gun violence committed crime, by a first time offender, an offender, or criminal in general, are cruel and unusual punishments, towards their innocent victim, or victims?
Where is the fair and equal moment, in your unequal and unfair question?
The United States has a gun problem, and the serial killers, sociopaths, criminals, offenders, first time offenders, and those illegal immigrants, or aliens, who used a gun to kill their innocent victims with, don't care about the United States, having a gun problem.
But do you know how to fix the gun problem in the United States?
(You can't throw the law at them, because people kill people with guns every day.)
Because those innocent babies, toddlers, kids, children, and families, made victims of themselves because they weren't armed with a gun like those offenders had, to shoot those offenders with, prior to being murdered by those same offenders right?
You throw the Second Amendment at those same offenders, and you let the Second Amendment deal with those murdered innocent lives, right?
Treat the Second Amendment as if it were it's own Police Officer, DA, and Judge, and let the Second Amendment, do it's lawful duty, right pro gun extremists crowd?
Right, NRA?
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Regardless of the truth of the OP statement, this statement of yours "if gun control worked or was even remotely an answer to the problem of gun violence, American cities like Chicago, New York, Newark, Baltimore, etc. would be amongst the safest places in the country. " is wrong and probably fallacious...
You deliberately or not, ignore the fact that there is no closed frontier/customs/borders between cities and states within the US... Those laws in Chicago, NY, etc, are in large part indeed useless because of that fact (no closed borders), not because they are in themselves inefficient...
Just sayin...
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I said: Regardless of the truth of the OP statement... So I do acknowledge the truth of the OP...
What I am saying is that those gun laws in those places (Chicago, etc) are useless because of the open borders between cities/states, not because they are inefficient in themselves... To be efficient, they require closed borders with monitored points of entry...
This should be very easy to understand to most people (but this is Debate Island so I don't assume this anymore), but just change "guns" for "immigrants" for example, imagine anti-immigrant laws in a place with open borders, the reason why immigration would still be a problem is not because of the anti-immigration laws, the problem would be that there's no closed borders with monitored points of entry... That is what I'm saying...
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*sigh*... Let's break this down...
I only addressed Sharky's fallacious assertion that "if gun control worked or was even remotely an answer to the problem of gun violence, American cities like Chicago, New York, Newark, Baltimore, etc. would be amongst the safest places in the country. "
I addressed nothing else...
Certainly didn't say that people who want guns will get them regardless of the law... It's a useless truism that says nothing of substance...
- People who really want to kill, will kill, regardless of the law...
- People who really want to rob, will rob, regardless of the law...
- Rapists will rape, regardless of the law...
All laws can be broken, well thanks captain obvious... "Then why do we have laws at all" would usually follow... This leads us nowhere and doesn't even relate to the point I was making...  Considerate: 44%  
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OK, so are you arguing against more gun laws because they don't work anyway and they tend to criminalize law-abiding citizens? Or are you advocating for strict, nationwide gun laws (universal registration and confiscation) but only if they are combined with strict border enforcement, including walls, aerial surveillance and greatly enhanced port security? It sounds like it has to be one or the other. Either way, you alienate large segments of the American public. In one case, you blatantly violate the US Constitution.
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The U.S. is the biggest circular firing squad on Earth 'cause the Second Amendment was written when it took 3 minutes to reload a highly inaccurate weapon. Enjoy "Independence Day", I hope you all survive.
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That is a fallacious statement, that's all I am saying... I'm not advocating for more or less gun laws here...
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I disagree that my statement is fallacious. It is premised with "if gun control worked or was even remotely an answer to the problem of gun violence...". That's a big "if".
The American left has contended for decades that gun control, meaning more restrictions on gun ownership, possession and the right to carry, is the exclusive route to a more peaceful and serene society. They call this "common sense gun laws". In jurisdictions run by Democrats for decades, they have managed to pass these laws in violation of the Constitution. The result, ironically, is that those jurisdictions suffer from some of the highest rates of violent crime in the country. The fact that draconian gun control laws have not worked where they've been passed makes my statement one of fact, not fallacy.
You contend that closed borders/frontiers and more monitoring and control over points of entry would change the equation, again ignoring the fact that criminals don't care about the laws and rules you wish and hope would work. This is all about what does and does not work and, as usual, the Democrats' "solution" to the problem has been demonstrated NOT to work. If it's so obvious that passing laws is futile because of the lawless nature of the criminal class, then why is there this constant, never-ending obsession with passing more useless gun control laws?
My statement, because of the "if" that begins it, is 100% factual. Our problem is not guns, its criminals.
OK. Do you agree with the debate title, "The Best Way to Stop a Bad Guy With a Gun is a Good Guy With a Gun"? I'm not sure you ever gave a specific opinion on that.
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"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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Here’s my stance on this:
If there were people at an outdoor event, and all of the good people had guns, and one bad person had a gun, and started shooting, and then everyone else started shooting at who they thought it was, everyone would get hurt.
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The fallacy is in asserting that a city level or even state level solution (laws) could (your IF) solve a national problem... Listing cities/sates with gun laws in regards to a national problem, is fallacious... It's a categorical error thus invalid...
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You say .......They're killing white farmers over there. No thanks. America is 100x better.
My reply ......Yet it’s rated as low as the U S regards peaceful societies
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I'm not contending anything regarding more or less gun laws... I don't give a damn about it, make it mandatory to carry lots of guns and ammo, shoot yourselves up with glee, or not, I honestly don't care...
What I'm saying though is that this "argument" you used is fallacious and invalid, there are other valid argument for or against gun laws, use those, but this one is not one of them...
The only gun laws that have any chance of working would have to be passed at the federal level, individual state laws as solutions to national problems are by definition dysfunctional and cannot solve anything... So pointing to failed State laws is fallacious (Categorical mistake). This is so basic and obvious, I'm disconcerted by the fact that some can't grasp this...
I'm not addressing the implied constitutional problems mind you (Federal vs State authority/sovereignty), that's another matter entirely...
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TBH, I think the US has a dysfunctional structure, which makes you unable to deal with those issues... In the sense that it's often difficult to picture the US as a "country" rather than a "union of independent states".. From the outside, it's seems like you haven't totally made up your minds about this, are you a country or a union of wannabe-countries? I have the same problem with my own country Canada, the province system is far from ideal in my opinion, but in Canada the federal level has more overseeing powers over more topics and individual provinces legislative powers are more limited than States in the US so it's a bit more manageable, but I would do away with those (Provinces) altogether...
As for a concise federal gun law that could work, until you address the federal vs state problem, I can't think of any that wouldn't be problematic on some levels... Trying to come up with a comprehensive and efficient gun law at the federal level, without touching the Constitution... I don't know that it can be done honestly...
It's similar to cannabis laws, since Colorado legalized recreational cannabis, officials say more pot is illegally coming through the border of states like Nebraska and Oklahoma... Well duh, those who are surprised need help... Some of those neighboring states are trying to have Colorado's law declared unconstitutional, good luck with that... This problem too won't and cannot be solved until you update your Constitution to address these issues...
But obviously, this won't happen anytime soon...
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Then maybe you should go LIVE over there and tell me which is better for you, since you're such a smartass. One is better than the other, clean your eyes and admit it instead of being in denial.
"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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You say ......
Then maybe you should go LIVE over there and tell me which is better for you, since you're such a
My reply .....But I’m not the one living in one of the least peaceful societies in the world you are ....remember 121 st place rating
You say ......One is better than the other, clean your eyes and admit it instead of being in denial.
My reply .....You’re probably right South Africans don’t need guns for protection in their own homes, yes you’re spot on U S is far more dangerous
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