just good old god
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maxx · July 2019

assuming for the sake of the argument that God is real and that the entire bible is true and reflects his word; then what can you tell me about his character?

MayCaesar · July 2019

The Bible contradicts itself in quite a few places. If absolutely everything there is true, then the god probably has some form of a bipolar/multipolar disorder, and is essentially a mix of very different characters, from the most benevolent to extremely violent and tyrannical ones.

Dee · July 2019

His character would be that of an evil God but that would not stop people worshipping him as religious indoctrination makes idiots of otherwise intelligent people

ethang5 · July 2019

That God is sovereign.
He is above being judged by the ants He created.

That He is kind
We messed up, but He found a way to make us right again.

He is logical
God is immanently logical and uses logic in His dealing with us

He is fair
God could be evil if He wanted. But with all His power He afforded us free will and will allow us our choice.

He has 5 unique qualities possessed by no other.
1. Omniscience 2. Omnipotence
3. Omnipresence 4. Immutability
and 5. He is Eternal.

maxx · July 2019

@ethang5 ethan, what about the bad side of him? all the evil done at his direction in the old testament? It would seem that he has the same characteristics as humans; with being bad, and good, indifferent, proud, kind, indifferent, and so on.

ethang5 · July 2019

@maxx

>ethan, what about the bad side of him?

Bad is relative isn't it? At 15 years old I thought my Dad was bad because he wouldn't let me get a tattoo.

>...all the evil done at his direction in the old testament?

Anything can be called evil. On what basis do you call God's action evil? On what moral code?

A militant jihadist calls your not having a beard evil. If he is wrong, why are you right in calling God evil? Because your moral code is better than his? Says who?

>It would seem that he has the same characteristics as humans; with being bad, and good, indifferent, proud, kind, indifferent, and so on.

If humans are made in the image of God, some similarity is to be expected, but the error atheists make is that they misunderstand who God is because they start with the false premise that God is a creation of man, and thus arrive at the silly conclusion that God is not real and/or, God is just like men.

I would love to argue just once with an atheist where neither of us was allowed to assume anything.

But alas! I've found debate is not what most religion board atheists want.

TKDB · July 2019

Being religious, is voluntary.

Being anti religious, is voluntary.

Some of humanity, acting hateful, destructive, cruel, or even worse, towards another human being, as well, is voluntary.

maxx · July 2019

On what basis do I call his actions evil? His own. @ethang5

maxx · July 2019

@maxx @TKDB @ethang5 and I will elaborate after work, yet I’m neither an atheist nor religious. In actuality, one doesn’t really know the truth, they only assume it. I consider myself as one who does not know

maxx · July 2019

@ethang5 very well, the question was what can we infer about the character of god based upon the bible; his word assuming that it is true. you stated many positive characteristics which although relative, I agree with for we see these traits in the bible; yet you failed to mention he is also a jealous god, egotistical, angry, and orders killing in his name. of course he is not this way all of the time, nor is he a kind and just god all of the time. he has the same traits as humans do, or perhaps we have the same traits as he does. therefore, by the bible itself, he has the same character flaws, as well as positive traits as humans do.

ZeusAres42 · July 2019

Don't some people already assume God is real?

maxx · July 2019

@ZeusAres42 that has naught to do with my question. the debate is the character of god

Plaffelvohfen · July 2019

From the Bible I can say that this character is loaded with personality disorders...

He's a petty, jealous & cruel narcissist totalitarian racist... Clearly a sociopath, maybe multiple personality disorder too?

Not someone I want near me or anyone I care about that's for sure...

ZeusAres42 · July 2019

Ok, assuming there is a religious God that exists then he/she clearly has some serious psychological issues.

On the other hand, assuming there is an actual deity such as an Intelligent design with no affiliation to any kind of religion then that is a different thing altogether. As for this particular kind of Deity though even assumed is real I would be able to tell you anything about its character as it would be something that is beyond human perception and comprehension.

If something is assumed the only place that something exists is in the minds of those that assumed it or believed it, for another word.

ethang5 · July 2019

@maxx

>very well, the question was what can we infer about the character of god based upon the bible; his word assuming that it is true. you stated many positive characteristics which although relative, I agree with for we see these traits in the bible;

Thanks, but as a note, that is not why I listed those traits.

>yet you failed to mention he is also a jealous god, egotistical, angry, and orders killing in his name.

I was not asked to mention His actions. Our disagreement is from the differences in our moral judgement of those actions.

I asked you, "On what basis do you call his actions evil?"
You answered, "His own."

That of course, is not only impossible, it's absurd. That is like judging a father as evil because he doesn't go to bed at 6:00 pm like he requires of his 2 year old daughter.

>of course he is not this way all of the time, nor is he a kind and just god all of the time. he has the same traits as humans do, or perhaps we have the same traits as he does.

You are still not understanding me. You are judging some action of God and then simply assuming your judgment is valid and asking me to explain them. I'm saying that your judgment of god as immoral is incoherent.

>therefore, by the bible itself, he has the same character flaws, as well as positive traits as humans do.

You are saying "therefore" as if you have presented a valid argument. You have not. You have only stated your bald opinion.

You are saying God is not kind and just all the time. This is your opinion, just as it is a jihadist's opinion is that you are evil for not growing a beard.

Let's examine my example. Why are you not evil for not having a beard? Why do you disregard the jihadist's moral judgement of you? Are you evil or not?

I will not simply accept your claim that God's actions are not kind and just. That is how atheists and agnostics enter the debate, as if their assumptions are already proven. With me, your assumptions have not been proven.

You must verify your claim with logical support, because I can defend God's actions as just and kind, using logic.

But you are the one making the claim, not me.

maxx · July 2019

maxx · July 2019

@ethang5 my assumptions are based upon the bible, his character is based upon the traits and as well of his actions listed in it. actions show an individuals character, for it is actions and what a person does that builds character traits, good or bad. God has both types of traits, just look in the old testament. I can not understand why you can possibly disagree that he has the same kind of character as humans do when they are shown in the bible. character is based on actions, and how one behaves and acts; just about any psychologist will tell you that.

ethang5 · July 2019

@maxx

>my assumptions are based upon the bible, his character is based upon the traits and as well of his actions listed in it.

True, and I have no problem with that, but actions alone cannot be used to judge morality.

>actions show an individuals character, for it is actions and what a person does that builds character traits, good or bad.

First, this cannot be true for God if God is omniscient. And if the God you're talking about is not omniscient, then I have no issue with you as you aren't talking about my God.

>God has both types of traits, just look in the old testament. I can not understand why you can possibly disagree that he has the same kind of character as humans do when they are shown in the bible.

You need to make up your mind. Is your complaint that God is immoral, or is it that God and the humans He created share some of the same characteristics sometimes? If it is the latter, I don't see any immorality there.

>character is based on actions, and how one behaves and acts; just about any psychologist will tell you that.

Lol. God on the couch of a human psychologist. That's funny.

OK maxx. Here is what you need to know about morality and actions.

Morality depends on 3 things,
1. The relationship between the moral actor and who his action is affecting,
2. The intent of the moral actor for taking said action, and
3. The moral authority the moral actor has for taking that action.

Without knowing these 3 things, we can be very wrong in judging moral actions.

Let me give you 3 examples. Answers will follow the examples.

A: A man crawls through the bedroom window of a dark house at night and begins to sexually "feel up" the sleeping woman in the bed inside.

Is he being immoral?

B: You see from a short distance three men hold down a struggling woman as one of them tries to cut her throat with a knife.

Are they being immoral?

C: A man you don't know decides he's going to lock you up for several years, and refuses to let you out over the years no matter how much you beg and plead.

Is he being immoral?

Those are all actions. Can you tell if those actions are moral or immoral?

Answers:
A: The man is the husband of the woman and they are role playing. The house is his.

B: The woman is choking and panicking from an obstruction in her throat and 3 EMTs are attempting to open an airway so that she doesn't suffocate.

C: The man you don't know is your judge and you are a criminal in his courtroom.

See? Actions alone cannot tell us if they are moral. Even identical actions can be moral for one person, and immoral for another.

And this is what atheists do to God. They look only at the action and ignore the context. And with this limited, subjective, imperfect understanding, call the action immoral.

This problem is fatal to the atheists argument, but there is another problem before that.

The atheist (you included) has no basis for calling anything immoral. Unless he means "what I personally don't like" when he calls something immoral.

Why should I give a fig for what he does or doesn't personally like? How does his personal dislike make an action immoral? How does his personal like make an action moral?

So be clear with me. Are you calling God immoral? In what action? Based on what moral code? Who placed God under that code? What gave that code authority?

After we satisfy those questions, we can judge the action of God as to the 3 deciders of morality, relationship, intent, and authority.

But most online atheists I've met, just want to judge God's action without context, pronounce Him immoral, and be done with it.

Ethan will take no part in any kangaroo courts. God deserves due process.

maxx · July 2019

@ethang5 I never stated he was immoral, I said he does bad and good and has the same traits as humans do. the definition of omniscient is all knowing and I fail to see how that would keep one from having character traits of humans. as well I am not an atheist. you put the words in my mouth. an atheist is one who does not believe in God. I am one who just does not know.

ethang5 · July 2019

@maxx

>I never stated he was immoral, I said he does bad and good and has the same traits as humans do.

As our creator, would that not be expected? And is not doing bad not the same as immoral?

>the definition of omniscient is all knowing and I fail to see how that would keep one from having character traits of humans.

You said "actions builds character", and I said that is impossible for an omniscient being.

>as well I am not an atheist. you put the words in my mouth.

No sir. I did not say you said you were an atheist. Don't be so sensitive.

>an atheist is one who does not believe in God. I am one who just does not know.

Yet you seem to know God has been immoral. Please can you tell me exactly what your claim about God is, and what's bad about it?

maxx · July 2019

@ethang5 how is it impossible for an omniscient being to have his character shown by his actions. elaborate, feel free to enlighten me.

ethang5 · July 2019

@maxx

You said "actions builds character", and I said that is impossible for an omniscient being.

Actions building character is describing a learning process. An omniscient being cannot "learn" as He already knows everything.

You do know what "omniscient" means right?

Since you seem to be unable to clearly state what your issue with God is, permit me to guess, and you tell me if I'm correct or not.

You think sometimes God behaved in the bible the way a human with an immoral personality would, and you don't think that would be the case if the character described in the bible as God, was indeed God.

How close am I?

maxx · July 2019

i think god has traits that resemble humans because the bible shows the same kind of actions that a human would do; good or bad.@ethang5

ethang5 · July 2019

@maxx

>i think god has traits that resemble humans because the bible shows the same kind of actions that a human would do; good or bad.@ethang5

Oooo k.

maxx · July 2019

God his self says he is a jealous god, as well although slow to anger he can be angry. Are these not human traits @ethang5

ethang5 · July 2019

>God his self says he is a jealous god, as well although slow to anger he can be angry. Are these not human traits

Are you sure they aren't godly traits? After all, God did come first.

OK, let's accept that they are "human" traits, so what?

Should not God and His creation share any traits?

Or are you just being informative?

maxx · July 2019

My post was about the character of God

ethang5 · July 2019

OK.

So you're one of those serial posters who don't address questions put to them.

I'm here for debate, not to just listen to some anti-theist rant.

>My post was about the character of God

Your post was about your uninformed opinion about the character of God.

Perhaps someone else views your opinion as truth, and will take your post on faith without question. That isn't me.

You have a nice day.

maxx · July 2019

Funny. Now you are saying god has no character? Does not traits and emotions and actions all add up to someone’s character? If you say no then you need to study some psychology. Uniformed opinion! I’m going by what the Bible says. It’s obvious that you simply cannot accept anything that is in the Bible that puts god in a bad light. You only embrace parts of it. It’s unbelievable how many people just ignore the bad parts of the Old Testament. Traits, emotions, and actions are what shows character. If god has any character at all( which you already said) then logically and according to the Bible his character is a good god as well as one who does bad things @ethang5

ethang5 · July 2019

@maxx

>Funny. Now you are saying god has no character?

Is that what I said?

>Does not traits and emotions and actions all add up to someone’s character?

So what?

>If you say no then you need to study some psychology.

You need to study what omniscience means.

>Uniformed opinion! I’m going by what the Bible says.

No, you're reading what the bible says and then placing your spin on it. The text is the bible, the spin is yours.

>It’s obvious that you simply cannot accept anything that is in the Bible that puts god in a bad light.

So we are to accept your claim that it puts God in a bad light without questions or debate?

>You only embrace parts of it.

I have rejected none of the bible. I have rejected your uninformed opinion that it puts God in a bad light. That isn't the bible, that is your opinion.

>It’s unbelievable how many people just ignore the bad parts of the Old Testament.

Stop being stupid. If I wanted to ignore it I simply would have not answered your post.

I've asked you questions, you've ignored them. I gave you analogies and examples, you've ignored them, I have even given you verses, you ignored them. Which of us is really interested in debate?

You want me to accept the silliness you posted without question or debate otherwise I'm not accepting scripture. Nonsense.

I'm saying you aren't correct, and if you would stop running and answer questions like in a real debate, you would see the logical error in your argument.

>Traits, emotions, and actions are what shows character. If god has any character at all( which you already said)

And I disagreed with you on your judgement of that character. You seem to think disagreement with you is not accepting the bible.

>then logically according to the Bible his character is a good god as well as one who does bad things

So says you. And it is obvious you don't want to debate it. You want it established as truth simply because you've said it.

Ethan doesn't do stupid. I told you, calling something bad does not necessarily mean it is bad. You have said God "does bad things".

That is your personal opinion. Now show me how it isn't just opinion. I don't take your opinion as truth.

Just as I dismissed Abdul's personal opinion that I had done a "bad thing" by not growing a beard, I dismiss your personal opinion that God has done "bad things".

You're on a debate site, when you learn how to debate, and aren't afraid to answer questions, I'll be here.

maxx · July 2019

oh forget it. It’s a hypothetical question and all you are doing is talking in circles. if you can not accept that god has character the same has humans then you are blinded by your faith. the bible itself points out that he has both bad flaws and good traits; or must I point them out for you? and if you can not understand that they add up to his character, then it is worthless to debate it. how is my opinion uniformed when I am getting these traits from the bible? Why don’t you look up the definition of the word “ character “@ethang5

ethang5 · July 2019

@maxx

>oh forget it. It’s a hypothetical question and all you are doing is talking in circles.

I am not talking in circles, you just don't know what debate is. You also seem intellectually ill equipped for the topic at hand.

>if you can not accept that god has character the same has humans then you are blinded by your faith.

I guess you do want your opinion taken on faith. As I am not a liberal, I will require logic. It is humans who have some of the characteristics as God. God has no "bad" flaws (or flaws of any kind)

>the bible itself points out that he has both bad flaws and good traits; or must I point them out for you?

You can try, but I think you'll find that you are conflating your opinion with scripture. The bible affirms God as perfect in every way and without fault. But like Abdul, perhaps you think some trait of God is "bad". It is your opinion, so what?

>And if you can not understand that they add up to his character, then it is worthless to debate it.

I have not disputed that, I have rejected your designation of those traits as "bad".

>how is my opinion uniformed when I am getting these traits from the bible?

The problem is not the traits you get, or where you get them, but your silly way of calling them "bad".

>Why don’t you look up the definition of the word “ character

I know English better than you. Drop your politically correct mindset and think with an open mind. You have not even once mentioned any trait that is supposed to be bad.

There are good resources on the net that teach what debate is and how to debate. Avail yourself.

maxx · July 2019

bad traits? oh i do not know, how about jealous anger? that is in the bible. you claim that God can not be wrong or bad even when He does things that if a human did would be considered bad; if not evil. how about God ordering a person stoned to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath? heck. ole god was just joking. or what about murder of almost the entire known world at the time by a flood? Perhaps He was doing that in a nice sort of way as all those little babies drowned. one can easily find these examples all though the bible as well as you know it. you also said " I know english better than you"; how nice when the actual way of stating that is " I understand English better than you". I do not have an open mind? you are so dogmatic, it borders on sophomoric. also you said the problem is not with the traits, but the silly way of I calling them bad. how is it silly to point out the traits God has according to the bible? the definition of character: The mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual.@ethang5

ZeusAres42 · July 2019

@ethang5

Talking of morality do you think you could please answer me this question: "Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God"

maxx · July 2019

an example would have been nice; but basically any good act willed by god would depend on his idea of what is moral not because of what is moral because he says it is.@ZeusAres42

ZeusAres42 · July 2019

@maxx

What........?

maxx · July 2019

perhaps you should rephrase your question and give an example@ZeusAres42

ZeusAres42 · July 2019

@maxx

Firstly, my question wasn't even directed at you. Secondly, you don't provide examples of questions to people; you simply ask them. You may, however, present examples of demonstrations/explanations of things.

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