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YeshuaRedeemed

What if the mother was raped, has medical problems, is under a certain age, the baby has issues, I am personally opposed to aborting the baby, but I do my best to care about the mother too. I identify as moderate on abortion, and subscribe to safe legal, and rare until the baby can feel pain, and here is why: When two or more lives are connected, there should be some choice. Some US states allow rapists to sue for custody, making adoption illegal for rape victims. Prolifers should make it easier to choose life instead of heaping IMPOSSIBLE situations upon terrified mother who hate abortion too, but need one anyway. The prolife movement is a colassal failure. Please prove that many prolifers are seeking a reformation of their own movement, and thank you for listening. I am so sorry to disappoint you all, it is how I feel. Abortion is NOT an easy decision.

with_all_humility

How do any of the concerns you identified "mother was raped, has medical problems, is under a certain age, the baby has issues".  How does this warrant the taking of a life? In the case of rape, there is no death penalty for a convicted rapist.  So why would we abort a living fetus from a rape incident?  Who get's to play God in the decision to take a life?


"Pro-lifers should make it easier to choose life instead of heaping IMPOSSIBLE situations upon terrified mother who hate abortion too but need one anyway."

• The question comes down to accountability; many seek to have an abortion for selfish reasons.
• Why abort due to rape?  The child is an innocent party in this as well.  A child never has the choice when it comes to conception.  I realize a woman does not have the decision in the instance of rape, however, should not the focus be on giving a child a chance to live despite the horrible situation that took place?
• Medical problem?  Who gets to choose one life over the other?  I would say leave it in God's hands and pray.
• Under a certain age???  Not sure what you mean here?
• Does the baby have issues?  I assume you are talking about abnormal development or perhaps down syndrome.  If that be the case, and we can abort a child for these reasons, then it should be okay to kill an already born child who suffers from these conditions.  If not, why not?

What gets me is a woman can abort a child and suffer no legal consequences, if some causes harm to the fetus other than the mother...that person can be tried for murder (called fetal homicide).  Explain how that passes any moral compass.  

"The pro-life movement is a colossal failure."  I don't know if the movement is a failure verse the liberal media and the fact that people don't want the accountability from haphazardly having sex.  Pro-life goes against now popular opinion.  We now live in a secular world.

WordsMatter

@with_all_humility I was struck when you said there isn't the death penalty for rapists. I'm curious what you think the penalty should be for women who get abortions? I'm genuinely curries as I've never had an answer from anyone prolife.

Edit: to add I would like to know why living in a secular society is a bad thing? Separation of church and state, secularism, is one of the most important founding principles of America. A non-secular state can run out of control and give us countries like Iran where women can be stoned to death for being raped.

YeshuaRedeemed

@with_all_humility What if the rapist sues for custody? This is personal because my convicted rapist is still in jail, and I affirm the right of rape victims to not coparent with her rapist. I hate abortion, but I hate rape culture more. Please if you disagree with my conclusion join me in demanding adoption rights for all proven rape and domestic violence victims, and I will strike those two reasons from my list. I don't want my rapist dead, because I want him to confess Jesus as Lord, repent, and be saved. I say we demand adoption rights for rape and dv victims, and put the offenders in long term prison at least 15 years to life Per offense. 

someone234

I cannot change your mind if you think the mother's will doesn't matter.

YeshuaRedeemed

@someone234 Of course I think she matters, but the baby matters too. As a moderate, I try to list to both sides of these issues.

Vaulk

The simple answer is:

It's normal to consider the absolute minority of the cases of abortion to be acceptable...meaning rape, incest and pregnancies that can result in the death of the Mother.  These are the absolute tiniest fraction of a fraction of the cases in Abortion, the vast majority of Abortions are simply cases of "I didn't mean to get pregnant".  Assuming we're all on the same page and we all understand that sexual intercourse between a Man and Woman has been causing pregnancy since the earliest introduction of Humans and has caused pregnancy in every mammalian species since the beginning of time as well...then we could easily all agree that "I didn't mean to get pregnant" is simply a poor and insulting excuse for anything.  "I didn't mean to" isn't an excuse when you kill someone while driving under the influence is it?  It's not acceptable as an excuse for setting off a fire alarm by holding a flame under a fire sprinkler system is it?  Likewise it's just comical that someone would use that excuse when it comes to pregnancy...the risk has always existed and trying to shuck it off is just pathetic.

As far as terminating a pregnancy because the child may have complications, deficiencies, disorders or other birth defect/genetic defect issues...well if we're going to open that door then eventually the door will open to terminating a child because their hair color is undesirable.  Killing a Child because the alternative would be to give life to a malformed or otherwise defective Human being is morally reprehensible.  Eugenics on its face isn't necessarily a bad thing because at the basic level...you're just controlling breeding habits...meaning Man A should only breed with Woman C...without any further context this isn't necessarily bad.  The Nazis however, perverted Eugenics to include the termination of Human life to control genetic demographics and that's what this would be comparable to.  Killing an unborn child because it has undesirable genetic qualities is evil on its face in my opinion and anyone supporting the notion deserves the shame that comes with it.

YeshuaRedeemed

@Vaulk I agree, but so many prolifers do not make exceptions. Are you prolife with exceptions? Do you support contraceptive use?

Vaulk

@YeshuaBought

Contraceptive (of a method or device) serving to prevent pregnancy.

Yes, as a method of preventing pregnancy...I fully support abstinence as the absolutely most effective method for preventing pregnancy.  

As far as subjecting your body to a drug that shuts down the reproductive tract and forces the reproductive system of a woman to malfunction and behave abnormally...I'd be just as hard pressed to deny someone the choice to use Marijuana.  If you really wanna use birth control pills...go nuts.

Now if you decide to practice the most ancient ritual of reproduction and you inadvertently create a child inside of you...I will give no sympathy...especially in the first world where education regarding reproduction is higher than it has EVER been before...there's simply no excuse.  I don't support killing unborn children in any way.  Even more so...I don't support my tax dollars going to organizations that provide abortions.

with_all_humility

WordsMatter said:

@with_all_humility I was struck when you said there isn't the death penalty for rapists. I'm curious what you think the penalty should be for women who get abortions? I'm genuinely curries as I've never had an answer from anyone prolife.

Edit: to add I would like to know why living in a secular society is a bad thing? Separation of church and state, secularism, is one of the most important founding principles of America. A non-secular state can run out of control and give us countries like Iran where women can be stoned to death for being raped.

On secularism, or separation of Church and State; I take no issue with.  However, WordMatter I said "secular society" To be secular is denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.  So when a whole society becomes secular, society begins to digress from Godly precepts...Unlike the founding fathers who establish a nation under Jewdeo/Christian precepts, however, do to corrupt church leaders in Europe the founding father had the wisdom to not be a church governed nation.  That is totally different than removing Godly principles from matters of judgment and leadership in our nation.  

Correct on the death penalty the Supreme Court ruled in 2008 Kennedy vs Louisiana; that the death penalty is unconstitutional for child rape and other non-homicidal crimes against the person.  

On what penalty I think of a woman who gets an abortion should have; I have not considered such things (it definitely would not be the death penalty) for I am not a lawmaker.  I simply believe such actions are wrong and that all who have done such things will be judged in the afterlife.  

I believe the better question is how can you justify the killing of a fetus?  

with_all_humility

YeshuaBought said:

@with_all_humility What if the rapist sues for custody? This is personal because my convicted rapist is still in jail, and I affirm the right of rape victims to not coparent with her rapist. I hate abortion, but I hate rape culture more. Please if you disagree with my conclusion join me in demanding adoption rights for all proven rape and domestic violence victims, and I will strike those two reasons from my list. I don't want my rapist dead, because I want him to confess Jesus as Lord, repent, and be saved. I say we demand adoption rights for rape and dv victims, and put the offenders in long term prison at least 15 years to life Per offense. 

I would say that we the people should advocate for laws that would preclude a rapist being able to sue for custody?  I have no sympathy for a person who would commit such a heinous act, that thought of such a person being able to reap the rewards of parenthood should never be allowed.  However, I do not believe such instance warrant the taking of a life.    

"I hate rape culture more" I'm not a big fan of the buzzword "rape culture" for I do not believe we live in such a culture that endorses such actions.  A persons space/body should be respected by all.  If we do live in a "rape culture" it is due to secular beliefs and a complete amendment from respect for fellow mankind.

"Please if you disagree with my conclusion join me in demanding adoption rights for all proven rape and domestic violence victims, and I will strike those two reasons from my list."  I believe you meant to say join you in demanding NO adoption rights...As stated above, I would support such laws precluding individuals who commit such terrible acts from having any parental rights, especially rapist.  Domestic violence might be situational dependent, would have known more specifics.  However, if a person has grievously abused their spouse and children; I do not see where they should have any claim to visitation and especially custody of children.  

"I say we demand adoption rights for rape and dv victims". I would hope that we would adopt the rights of victims of such crime that if they choose to put their child up for adoption that no rapist or the rapist's family have any say or rights in the adoption of the child as well.  Again I would contend there be no form of rewarding such a crime.  Domestic violence again, is a much more complicated situation or are you talking about one's spouse raping them?

"Put the offenders in long-term prison at least 15 years to life per offense" I have no issue and would support such penalties.  Perhaps 15 years might even not be enough of a sentence.  

Vaulk

I also don't subscribe to the terminology "Rape Culture"...we don't have one and never have in the United States.  An example of rape culture would be Mexico where the legal age of sexual consent is 12 and in some states is the age the girl begins menstruating and can be as low as 10 years old.  Now THAT'S rape culture, an entire country living, breathing and operating under the blanket acceptance that it's ok to seduce a 10-12 year old.

If someone's tried and convicted of Rape...they won't win a custody case for their child in any Court in the United States.  If anyone here has precedent for this then please show me I'm wrong and I'll stand with you shoulder to shoulder and fight it but to the best of my knowledge...this isn't an issue.

I also have no issue with rape offenders receiving heavy penalties even for their first offense.  Likewise, @YeshuaBought do you support crippling punishments for those who make false accusations that result in false imprisonment?  Every year there are hundreds of Men who are exonerated from Prison sentences when their accusers finally come forward and admit that they're a lying sack of $hit who's ruined the honest life of a decent human being for no reason.