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TKDB

From Wikipedia:

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus "threefold")[1] holds that God is one God, but three coeternal consubstantialpersons[2] or hypostases[3]—the Father, the Son(Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[4] In this context, a "nature" is whatone is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[5]Sometimes differing views are referred to as nontrinitarian. Trinitarianism contrasts with positions such as Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities) and Monarchianism (no plurality of persons within God), of which Modalistic Monarchianism (one deity revealed in three modes) and Unitarianism (one deity in one person) are subsets.

While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament, the New Testament possesses a "triadic" understanding of God[6] and contains a number of Trinitarian formulas.[7] The doctrine of the Trinity was first formulated among the early Christians and fathers of the Church as early Christians attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions.[8] 

Sand

@Neopesdom

Wikipedia says the same thing:

The opening verse of John’s Gospel contains one of the many passages where this rule suggests the translation of a predicate as a definite noun. Καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος [Kaì theòs ên ho lógos] looks much more like "And the Word was God" than "And the Word was divine" when viewed with reference to this rule. The absence of the article does not make the predicate indefinite or qualitative when it precedes the verb, it is indefinite in this position only when the context demands it. The context makes no such demand in the Gospel of John, for this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas [Footnote: John 20,28]."

Sand

Ernest Cadman Colwell (1933). "A definite rule for the use of the article in the Greek New Testament" (PDF). Journal of Biblical Literature. 52: 12–21. Archived (PDF) from the original on January 18, 2016.

Sand

@TKDB

>>>While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament, the New Testament possesses a "triadic" understanding of God and contains a number of Trinitarian formulas. The doctrine of the Trinity was first formulated among the early Christians and fathers of the Church as early Christians attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions.

This is the definition of the Trinity by Wikipedia, and a quote from a book.

The Trinity is not scriptural.

Neopesdom

@Sand

>>Please correct me if I am wrong but I do not think I quoted anything from the corrupt “New World Translation” rendering of this verse. A majority of my quotations is from the Online Parallel Bible site.

I didn't find something called 'the Online Parallel Bible site', what is the URL? Which specific translation are you referencing which renders a small g?

Of the online parallel Bible sites I found, such as https://www.biblestudytools.com/john/1-1-compare.html or https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm,  I didn't find any translations which render John 1:1 with a little g. Apart from https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/1/

Your quote: >>In [the]    beginning    was    the    Word,    and    the    Word    was    with    the    God,    and    god    was    the    Word.

NWT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

Your comment;  >> "The distinction here is denoting that Jesus is a divine being."

This is also asterisked on the 'jw' site beside the verse footnoted (Or “was divine.”)

>>This is why Goodspeed and Moffatt's Versions are more accurate in this verse than most translations.

Goodspeed - In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. 
Moffatt - THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine. 

The greek word for divine is θείας (theias) or θεῖον (theion), not theos.

Word substitution seems like it's the furthest from accuracy. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

Sand

@Neopesdom

https://biblehub.com/

I have my own greek interlinear.

I have a book of greek rules it shows the Colwell Rule.

"was divine", "a divine being"

http://www.areopage.net/ColwellRule.pdf

Divine has the same meaning - of, from, or like God or a god.

Your words here are strong:

>>>John wants the reader to know that while they are one, there is also a distinction to be made.

Yes this is what John is saying.

>>>Exactly what the Trinity teaches.

The word "Trinity" gives the concept of there only being three.

There are more, the Angels.

The Angels are gods, or divine.

They are one with God but there is also a distinction.

21CenturyIconoclast

“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816)

Sand

John left that definite article off for a reason.

He is intentionally pinpointing Jesus to be separate from the ‘The’ God to a more subtle ‘a’ god or a ‘divine’ being.

But translators of many Bibles came to this scripture already believing certain things about the Word, and made sure their beliefs came through their work.

I feel this is a great disservice to everyone who reads the Bible.

 

This is what Neopesdom calls “criminal”.

Yes they rob themselves and others of ever getting to know the “True God” in the Bible, by building a “Pseudo God” in the Trinity.

We owe it to John to translate his words the way he wrote them. We owe it to God to translate his words the way they are written.

The RULE is the RULE.

 

Stick to the Rule cross the board.

Neopesdom

@Sand ;

Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a man is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind, and he loses connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow. (Col 2:18)

“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (Isa. 43:10)

Sand

@Neopesdom

Obviously Colossians 2:18 refers to worship not inconnection to God.

All the servants in the Hebrew scriptures worshipped Angels in connection to God.

Genesis 10:2,3 - "When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by."

Yes there are no God's formed after the True God.

That is why the Angels are gods in title only.

They are called gods because they are spirits like God and from heaven like God.

Jesus referenced gods and said the scriptures cannot be nullified.

John 10:34, 35 - "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

Here is a scripture of Jesus before he came to earth.

Daniel 7:13,14 - "I continued watching in the night visions, and suddenly one like a son of man was coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was escorted before him. He was given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom; so that those of every people, nation, and language should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will not be destroyed. "

This shows Jesus tries to approach God, but not without an escort, showing his position is lower than Seraphs. 

Now look at verse 14 explains why the Angels worship (or bow down to) him, because he will be given the Kingdom.

Sand

@Neopesdom

Deuteronomy 32:39  says something similar to Isaiah 43:10

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

Meaning there is no office, no group, but only one and no one else.

Deuteronomy 4:35 - "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."

Even Jesus agreed with the same thing.

Mark 12:32-34 - " And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question."

Have you ever seen Jesus agree with a scribe? Especial on the essence of God?

Neopesdom

@Sand ;

>>All the servants in the Hebrew scriptures worshipped Angels in connection to God.

>>Genesis 10:2,3 - "When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by."

In the Old Testament God's name is identified by four consonants resulting in the unpronounceable YHWH, commonly articulated as Yahweh, Jehovah, or the shortened from of God's name " I AM", known as the tetragrammaton.

Gen 10: Verse 1 and 22 identifies one of the three who have taken on the appearance of a man to be Jehovah. The other two are identified as angels in Gen 19:1.

God or the preincarnate angelic form of Jesus is metaphorically sometimes called the Angel of the Lord. 

On that day the LORD will defend the residents of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. (Zechariah 12:8)

In John 8:58 Jesus reveals His identity to the Jews, "“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I AM!”  

Jesus was identifying Himself with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, where the word is Ehyeh, which is from the same root as Jehovah, the Eternal existing One; He that was, and is, and the coming One. It is derived from havah, 'to exist,' and may be expanded into 'who is, who was, and is to come.' 

"God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’” (Exodus 3:14)

Jesus is Jehovah!

>>That is why the Angels are gods in title only.
>>They are called gods because they are spirits like God and from heaven like God.
>>Jesus referenced gods and said the scriptures cannot be nullified.
>>John 10:34, 35 - "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

Psalm 82:6-7 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."

The gods that are referenced here are men, not angels. Jesus is exposing their hypocrisy in using the word 'gods' in reference to men or judges without issue. In the Jews mind Jesus is just a man, who is now saying that He is God and they want to stone him because of it. Jesus is saying that because you think I'm just a man that claims to be God, why do you have a problem if in your own law it's written that these men are also called gods. He is not making an equivalency, just pointing out their double standards.

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…(1 Corinthians 8:4-6)

Sand

@Neopesdom

>>>In the Old Testament God's name is identified by four consonants resulting in the unpronounceable YHWH, commonly articulated as Yahweh, Jehovah, or the shortened from of God's name " I AM", known as the tetragrammaton.

"I AM" is not a shortened version of the tetragrammaton it is what the name means.

The person who said "I AM" is an Angel.

Exodus 3:2-6 - "And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

Acts 7:35 - "This Moses whom they disowned, saying, 'WHO MADE YOU A RULER AND A JUDGE?' is the one whom God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the help of the angel who appeared to him in the thorn bush."

>>>Gen 10: Verse 1 and 22 identifies one of the three who have taken on the appearance of a man to be Jehovah.

This is not true. Unless you are saying Jesus is lying.

John 6:46 - "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father."

John 5:37 - "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."

Jesus says no human has heard or seen God at any time, all contact was through an angel.

Moses was speaking to an angel.

Abraham was speaking to an angel.

>>>God or the preincarnate angelic form of Jesus is metaphorically sometimes called the Angel of the Lord.

Can you show me a scripture proving this? Jesus will be metaphorically be called an Angel.

So before Jesus came down he "metaphorically" was an Angel

When Jesus was down he was "limited", that is why he separates himself from God.

When Jesus is back in heaven he speaks with an Angel's voice.

Plus Jesus tells John not to worship him only "through" an Angel.

Angel, Angel, Angel, Angel..............Trinitarian conclusion: Jesus is God!

Instead of the clear obvious answer: Jesus is an Angel.

>>>The gods that are referenced here are men, not angels.

What about Psalms 8:5 - "For you have made him only a little lower than the gods, crowning him with glory and honour."

>>>For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…(1 Corinthians 8:4-6)

so-called gods (title only) = Jesus (John 1:1)

Whether Jesus is in heaven or on earth he is not God.

Jesus is the Lord because he is King of God's Kingdom.

YeshuaRedeemed

https://acts17apologetics.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/deity-of-christ-tract-final.pdf

Neopesdom

@Sand

If a voice message comes out of your phone and says I am your father, will you give a card to your phone on fathers day?

Angelic Agency

The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as sheluaḥ or sheliaḥ (one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself (Ḳid. 41b). - www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/894-agency-law-of

The Hebrews had this idea in mind.

When she recognized Peter’s voice, she was so overjoyed that she forgot to open the gate, but ran inside and announced, “Peter is standing at the gate!” “You are out of your mind,” they told her. But when she kept insisting it was so, they said, “It is his angel.” (Acts 12:14-16)

Scripture clearly spells this concept out.

It clearly says "This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. (Acts 7:35)

You have mistaken the agent for the principal, no wonder you think Angel Angel Angel Angel.

Sand

@YeshuaRedeemed

In each of those scriptures it uses the words like 'through', 'granted', and 'given' proving Jesus is not the source.

I showed where Jesus said "I am an angel, do not worship me."

Neopesdom showed where Jesus is a so-called god and not the True God.

Now I have already provided another alternative for each of the claims.

I have also provided additional claims that were unanswered.

Trinitarians make you focus on parts of scriptures and hide certain facts.

Jesus says he is not God over and over. But Trinitarians say we cannot accept his words because he is "limited".

The holy spirit says nothing.

So if you would like to walk through some of the hidden information of the Trinitarians.

Give me a scripture.

But if you don't want to know the truth, if you are content believing the Trinity, it's OK.

Just keep in mind that the Trinity is not scriptural.

Jesus is not God.

YeshuaRedeemed

Sand said:

Here is the proof.

The trinity cannot not stand by Reference.

Here is the rule, you cannot refer to a part of something and the whole at the same time. To do so would indicate that the part is not connected to the whole.

If Jesus is the part of the whole then every reference to the whole is a reference to the part. So if Jesus ever reference God, he is speaking about himself in the third person. Nevertheless, when Jesus reference the whole and the part at the same time, it indicates that he is not God.

Lets look at your examples:

Past Present and Future are all components of time.

Height Width Depth are all facets of Space.

Solid Liquid and Gas are all states of Matter.

 

So it would be illogical to state, “This affects time, and the Future”, or “This affects Space, and Height”, or “This affects Matter, and Liquid”. These statements indicate that Future is not a component of time, or Height of Space, or Liquid of Matter. It would be comparable to saying, “The person sold me a car and a transmission.” The word “and” means “in addition to”. So it is with the understanding that the car is the whole that includes a transmission in it. To place “and” in the statement would indicate an additional transmission. If the transmission was a part of the car, there would be no need to mention the transmission. Jesus is constantly referred apart from the totality of God, thus the conclusion can be made that Jesus is not God. John 17:3; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:1

 

 

Unless the statement is referencing the same entity, then “and” could be used to refer to two terms that apply to the same entity or whole. For example, ‘your automobile and car’, both titles referring to the same entity or item. You cannot say ‘your automobile and transmission’ because that would not reference title, but whole and part. Then that means God is not a totality and Jesus is not a part. I think that argues against the conclusion that God consists of three separate entities who together is God. It would mean that God is Jesus and these are just different titles. So then it should be possible to switch the terms.

 

Switching the Terms

Switching terms should always be possible on one entity. Everywhere in the Bible I should be able to place the title “Father” in place of the title “God” and get the same meaning. Whenever you are not able to do so, logic indicates it is not the same entity. You cannot switch the terms with Jesus and God on all instances. Is Jesus the Father? Did Jesus resurrect God?

 

There is no instance that Past Present and Future are not considered time, or Height Width Depth are not considered Space, or Solid Liquid and Gas are not considered Matter.

But your understanding of God?

Did God die for your sins?

Did Jesus die for your sins?

Did Holy Spirit die for your sins?

This should be the same statement, since three are one. - 1 Peter 3:18; Hebrews 9:28

Is Jesus good?

Is God good?

Is Holy Spirit good?

According to Jesus “only” the Father is good. - Mark 10:17, 18

Is the son the only begotten?

Is the father the only begotten?

Is the holy spirit the only begotten?

According to the scriptures the son is the “only begotten”. - John 3:16-18

If you sin against the father will it be forgiven?

If you sin against the son will it be forgiven?

If you sin against the holy spirit will it be forgiven?

Matthew 12:31, 32

 

These terms cannot be switched. This is another indication that Jesus is not God. When someone “is” another person, everything must line up. Any small distortion indicates they are someone else. Example: There could be two John Smiths. Both could be Fathers, Both could be Sons, Both could be Teachers. Both could be one person. But as soon as I say that only one could walk. It indicates that they are not the same. The word “only” destroys continuity especially when comparing someone of who is considered to be one entity in totality. The  word “only” is applied many times to God by Jesus excluding himself. By doing that he is indicating he is not God at all. If someone or something has more power, authority, or knowledge than you could you be considered the highest being? Jesus many times indicates this of God in comparison to himself.

All you did was give your opinion, while i produced evidence, honey. 

YeshuaRedeemed

AlofRI said:

There is a lot of "forcing beliefs" going on. I'll just list a few books here that show, to anyone willing to read, or listen, what is happening.
(These books available on Amazon)
American Fascists; (The Christian Right and the War on America)
The Family; ( The Secret fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power)
Liars for Jesus; ( The Right Wings Alternative Version of American History)
Religious Right; (The Greatest Threat to Democracy)

I'm for The Bill of Rights and the Constitution. I'm for the First Amendment. We HAVE to remember that, as John Adams pointed out at the Treaty of Tripoli: "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion." (OR, any other religion). That was for a reason. As another founder, James Madison, pointed out:  "The purpose of the Separation of church and state is to keep, forever from these shores, the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." The founding fathers knew that THEY, had to form the laws of the land based on human reasoning, NOT the Bible. When we "swear in" , to an elected or appointed office we swear to uphold the Constitution, not the Bible. It is also just as legal to swear ON the Constitution rather than the Bible, as T. Roosevelt AND, I believe it was John Adams that did, also. The books above show, (and one can see it if they allow themselves to), that certain groups of Evangelicals and other religions, are trying to rewrite the Constitution to more closely (strictly) follow the Bible against the wishes and plans OF the founders. THAT would make U.S. not unlike the middle east authoritarian countries and open the doors to "soaking the soil" as Madison predicted. Bible against Qur'an will never cease, one HAS to give up their "god". Most will die first.

Another document, the Declaration of Independence, is carefully crafted to NOT mention any particular "god". It mentions "the Natural God" and "THEIR Creator", leaving BOTH open to interpretation by individuals or religions. I, and most other Americans want to keep it that way. Worship any "god" you wish, but, don't try to run The United States WITH it!

I forget which founding father said this (if anyone knows please tell me): "I don't care about theology unless it threatens our freedom, then I care about it in the way I care about Rabies or Typhoid!" I feel the same. Hold your religion as close as you wish, live by it, all fine. Just keep it out of my government. The nation wide media should NOT be judging any religion, I agree. FOX DOES judge Islam. Keep it as required by the Constitution and they won't, I'm sure. I am NOT judging religion, I am just objecting to the (un-Constitutional) misuse of it. 

You don't have the right to not be offended. I am not forcing anything on anyone. I have the right to religious liberty, and free speech. If you don't like my content, you are free to not read it.

Sand

@YeshuaRedeemed

>>>All you did was give your opinion, while i produced evidence, honey.

You gave a link to a video. That was someone else's one sided viewpoint.

You like to give links to brochures and videos and call it evidence.

It shows another persons study or reasoning. You do not understand that person study or reasoning.

If you do copy it and type it in the debate.

It is called a debate because you post your claim against other claims.

Not your video verses another video.

You say this is my opinion, that is the rules of english.

Attack the claim

Explain please how you can refer to a part and a whole and be referencing the same enitity.

Explain how a title can reference one entity and not switch the terms.

Did you look up the scriptures I provided?

I asked several questions and provided scriptural examples to show how you cannot switch the terms.

Take the same scriptures and explain how you can switch the terms.

Simple as 123.

But please do not place another link, because I do not know your claim.

I need to know your facts that support your claim.

RyanHough

The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three persons as one

Sand

@RyanHough

>>>The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three persons as one

This claim is not scriptural and not logical.

#1 Not Scriptural

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…(1 Corinthians 8:4-6)

Everyone called God in heaven is not the True God except one the Father.

This excludes Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Angels.

Jesus is called Lord because he is the King of God's Kingdom.

#2 Not Logical

When someone is something you should be able to switch the terms.

The Holy Spirit died for your sins. - 1 Peter 3:18; Hebrews 9:28

Jesus is good. - Mark 10:17, 18

The Father is the only begotten. - John 3:16-18

If you sin against the Son will not be forgiven. - Matthew 12:31, 32

These should be the same statements, since three are one.

Nevertheless, as you read the scriptures these terms are not interchangable.

When you refer to a whole it is with the understanding you are including the parts.

Whenever you reference God you reference the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus.

But there are many scriptures they reference God but not Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

John 17:3; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:1

YeshuaRedeemed

@Sand I have provided valid evidence which you willfully ignored, while giving your unbiblical opinion. You have failed to disprove my evidence. You're not a Christian, so why do you care what Christians believe?

Sand

@YeshuaRedeemed

Just saying you provided valid evidence doesn't make it evidence.

You quoted no scriptures, you stated no claims, you presented no arguements.

Only thing you did is place links.

I have used the scriptures to come to a logical and clear conclusion.

The question is are you a Christian (A follower of Christ).

Are you baptised? Do you go to Church?

Because I find it hard to believe that Jesus would hand a link to someone who asks a question.

I also find it curious that someone would call a person unbiblical when they are the one quoting scriptures.

I question if you know scripture at all.

Let me ask you:

What age did Moses get on the Ark?

How many resurrections are mentioned in the Bible?

Who is the prettiest person stated in the Bible?

What makes Faith dead?

What is the difference between wisdom and money?

What did Adam and Eve eat that caused their death?

What is one thing God cannot do?

And provide the scripture references please.

I believe you cannot do it.

I believe you will only state how you placed unscripted "valid" evidence and I failed to disprove it, stuffed with another insult.

Or you will place another link to another video or brochure.

Sand

@Neopesdom

>>>If a voice message comes out of your phone and says I am your father, will you give a card to your phone on fathers day?

Excellent Illustration! Nevertheless, this applies to Jesus. He even said his words was not his own, as an agent would say.

John 14:24 - "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

Jesus is the Agent.

You said it your scripture.

The scripture you qouted:
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) 

Proves Jesus is an Agent, he is not the True God.
The principal is clearly the Father.

YeshuaRedeemed

@Sand Like I said, I have provided evidence which contains Scripture, and like I said, you have ignored it. Like I said, you are not a Christian, so why do you care what I believe. You are free to post here, but I wash my hands of you. 

Sand

@YeshuaRedeemed ;

Your link contained a video of scriptures, and a link with a brochure of scriptures.

You personally quoted no scriptures, you stated no claims, you presented no arguements.

I watched your information, and read the brochure.

I am a Christian.

Neopesdom

@Sand

>>Jesus is the Agent.

In the case of Divine Agency, God Himself is the Principle and the Agent. He was manifested in the flesh. 

I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

He was manifested in the flesh,
    vindicated by the Spirit,
        seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
    believed on in the world,
        taken up in glory. 

(1 Timothy 3:14-16)

I brought up this verse before and you claimed that it was corrupted, the word He was changed to God, according to Newton's dissertation. However in context with the previous verse we can quite clearly see that the suspect word 'He' is referring to God. 

Sand

@Neopesdom

Excellent! That is the Biblical Scholar I know!

Back up one verse. Now lets look at this information:

For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit,
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.

The subject is Christ Jesus not God:

the household of God

the church of the living God

a pillar and buttress of the truth

the mystery of godliness

These are terms that refer to Jesus, you can pinpoint it by the word 'of' meaning indicating an association between two entities, typically one of belonging.

"the son of a friend"

HE was manifested in the flesh.

Now you are taking the path I took, because I was taught the Trinity also.

I began to walk down every verse, to study every instance of Jesus and God.

My eyes of understanding grew and grew.

Keep walking my brother!

Sand

People who study the scriptures without the influence of Trinitarians would come to the same conclusion that Jesus is not God, easily and quickly.

But most people have been exposed to the teaching and influence of the Trinity.

To undo this influence much deep study is needed.

Most people don't do much let alone deep study.

To make the determination whether that Jesus is God or not, most people just rely on the study of others, like YeshuaRedeemed.

They will see a video or read a brochure and say I believe that.

But they will not take the time to break down the claim and arugments.

So they are unable to explain their position and why.

YeshuaRedeemed wanted me to watch the video, read the brochure, and build a claim and arguments against myself.

I have done this work already for my understanding and growth.

But if I do build a claim and arguments, I have to build a stronger claim to defeat myself.

Meanwhile, YeshuaRedeemed sits back and plays the bias Judge and says 'your wrong'.

It could easily be said I didn't present the video's argument correctly, or my explaination is bias.

Present your own claims and supporting arguements, if you really want to know.

But if you dont want to know, you don't have to know. No one is forcing people to believe.

Just recognize this is a belief not based on the scriptures.

Neopesdom

@Sand

>>Now you are taking the path I took, because I was taught the Trinity also.

The only path I'm taking is the narrow one, I certainly hope that your incredulity is not contagious, but in a day and age where most people don't do much let alone deep study, false doctrines such as yours are able to florish.

>>The subject is Christ Jesus not God: the household of God, the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth, the mystery of godliness

>>These are terms that refer to Jesus

Actually the church refers to the Bride of Christ which is the church of God, the New Jerusalem.

When it says 'He', it does refer to Jesus, because Jesus is God who was manifested in the flesh.

A professional controversialist like yourself is more than happy to push theological themes which only seek to confuse would be believers. We all know who the god of confusion is. This regurgitated rehash of Socinain and Arian vomit, was dredged out of the pit again by the Satanist Johannes Greber and the exposed perjurist(Russell vs Ross) Charles Taze Russell founder of the heretical cult known today as "Jehovah Witnesses", which come to your door proclaiming that John 1:1 should be read as 'a god'. 

Johannes Greber (1874–1944) born in Wenigerath, Germany, was ordained a Catholic priest who later became a medium and involved in a variety of spiritualist activities.- wiki

Greber's name is used in the "Trinity" section of this Society's book as a "scholarly" support for the 'a god' translation of John 1:1. - Make Sure of All Things, 1965 p.489 by Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society - https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/96554/johannes-greber-who-he

In John we read, that The Word became flesh and dwelt or tabernacled, among us." In the old testament God tabernacled with the Jews in the wilderness, but was separated by a veil. By Jesus that veil was torn apart and we now have direct access to God the Father, through Jesus Christ. Since we are made one with Jesus we also become living stones of the temple made without hands.

"...The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works." (John 14:11) 

But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:17-18)

....you, a mere man, claim to be God. (John 10:33)

They did not accept His message and therefore claimed He hath a devil, and was insane. (See, John 10:20). “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (Mark 2:7)

"...there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) 

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands (Acts 17:24)

For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. (Deu 10:17)

The LORD of Hosts is the One to regard as holy. Only He should be feared; only He should be dreaded, and He will be a sanctuary. But to both houses of Israel He will be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, a trap and a snare to the dwellers of Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 8:13-14)

As you come to him [Jesus], the living Stone rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him — ...Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,”and, A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”(1 Peter 2:4, 7-8) 

It is evident that the stone that causes men to stumble and [the] rock that makes them fall of Isaiah and Peter are one and the same. The wording in the Old and New Testaments is identical. Peter knows Him as the Lord Jesus Christ; Isaiah calls Him, The Lord of Hosts, Jehovah.

Sand

@Neopesdom

You must be a Jehovah's Witness or a X-Jehovah's Witnesses, because you qoute from the Watchtower a lot.
I said it should be translated as "divine".  You said that is word substitution. Nevertheless, the english language changed from the old english. Old english recognized that references to god was not the True God. This was recognized in Koine Greek also. But in modern English reference to God is reserved for the True God. That definition of "Theos" is the same definition of the modern english "divine".

>>>But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:17-18)
Was Jesus breaking the Sabbath? No he wasn't. He explained it was never against the Sabbath to heal on the Sabbath.
Now the question was he making himself equal with God? No he wasn't. As you stated with the term "Agent", Jesus is the Agent.

>>>If a voice message comes out of your phone and says I am your father, will you give a card to your phone on fathers day?
Apparently you would buy your phone a card.
Explain how Jesus is not an Agent of God.

You quote John 14:11
>>>"...The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works." (John 14:11)
almost exactly like the scripture I quote
John 14:24 - "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."
Both say that Jesus is the Agent.
Jesus says he was 'sent', if he was God then a more appropriate word would be 'came'.
I was 'sent' says 'Agent', this is your stuff!
Please explain how Jesus is not an Agent of God.


Trinitarians know that Jesus never claimed to be God. That is why they are constantly asking 'Where did he claim he is not God?'
I mean based on that reasoning Ezekiel didn't claim he was not God also, maybe he is God.
>>>They did not accept His message and therefore claimed He hath a devil, and was insane.
This was not Jesus message.
Nevertheless, I am open for correction.
Where in his message did he claim to be God?
Where?
Show me the scripture?

Lets hypothetically say Jesus does claim to be God.

The scripture you quoted clarifies that viewpoint.
That the Father is 'the only True God':
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…(1 Corinthians 8:4-6)
This agrees with the old testament:
Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"
Even Jesus agrees with this:
John 17:3 - "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
If you are truly on that narrow road, then you need to accept truth.
The Father is the only True God.
Jesus is a so-called god, an Agent.

YeshuaRedeemed

I'm sorry for being mean. I had a conversation with Jesus, and we decided together, that I would apologize. I have an over active thyoid, which can effect mood, but I am on a new thyroid medication, which should help shortly.

YeshuaRedeemed

@Sand Excuse me, I'm sorry for being mean, can we start over?

Sand

@YeshuaRedeemed ;

Sure, please go ahead.

YeshuaRedeemed

@Sand Thank you. What evidence do you need from Scripture?

Sand

@YeshuaRedeemed

How do you come to the concept of 3 in 1?

Is the Holy Spirit God?

Sand

Why 3?

Why not 4, 200, 1506 in one?

If you notice that the debate is always with Jesus being God, I would like the information of Jesus being the True God.

I would like the information that the Holy Spirit is the True God.

The Bible only points to the Father being the one True God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"

John 20:17 - "Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'""

John 17:3 - "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 - "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist."

Notice the word "through" for Jesus, meaning he was an Agent.

Exodus 9:35; Exodus 25:39; Leviticus 10:11; Leviticus 26:46; Numbers 4:37; Numbers 4:44; Numbers 4:49

I have many more.

Through Definition - by means of (an intermediary or agent).

Neopesdom

Trinity in Scripture

Trinity at the Incarnation

And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

Trinity at the Great Commision

Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,..."

Trinity at the Baptism of Jesus

Matthew 3:16-17 ... Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I (Father) am well pleased!”

The Three are One God

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him (Romans 8:9). The Spirit of God is used interchangeably with the Spirit of Christ.

Romans 16:16 uses the phrase "churches of Christ", 2 Thes. 1:4 uses the phrase churches of God.

Revelation 1:8 says that the Lord God is the Alpha and the Omega, in Revelation 22:13, Jesus says " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Thus says Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. (Isaiah 44:6) 

In the Old Testament God's name is identified by four consonants YHWH, commonly articulated as Yahweh, Jehovah, or "I AM".  In John 8:58, Jesus says He is "I AM".

John 2:19-22 Jesus says He will raise Himself from the dead, 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 say God will raise Him from the Dead. In Romans 8:11 says that the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead!

Acts 13:2,  Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Here the Holy Spirit is confirmed to be a person who speaks independently for Himself. "And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,.."  (Heb. 10:15)

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.” (Acts 5:3-4) The Holy Spirit is here equated with God.

In 1 John 5:7 we read, The Spirit is the truth,  In John 14:6 we read, Jesus is the truth.

1 Corinthians 2:6-13 says that the Holy Spirit knows and reveals God, in Matthew 11:27 we read "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.. 

Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.. Isaiah 45:22-23. .that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father..Philippians 2:10-11. It is clearly evident that these two passages together reveal the identity of Jesus as God, worship is reserved for God alone.

And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls. Joel 2:32. Then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.... Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.. Acts 4:10-12. Joel exhorts us to call upon the divine name for salvation. "And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved," Peter quotes this exact verse (Acts 2:21) and tells us (Acts 4:12) that salvation is found in the name of Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul similarly urges that every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:11).

The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.. Psalms 23:1. .You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.. Ezekiel 34:31. I [Jesus] am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me.. John 10:14. ....our Lord Jesus,

that great Shepherd of the sheep.... Hebrews 13:20. Often in the Old Testament God is referred to as the Shepherd of His flock, His people. Jesus said of Himself, I am the good shepherd.. A firmer affirmation of his identity could not be made more clear.

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.. Job 19:25-27 God, the creator, the Redeemer, also called the Savior, became a man and stood upon the earth for flesh and blood to behold.

Philip in John 14 when he asked Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father" (v. 8). Jesus had been speaking of God in a distanced way all this time, and poor Philip thought that he was speaking of another person. But, notice Jesus' response. He almost sounded as if he were puzzled when he said, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?" (v. 9). Jesus was saying that He Himself was the one that Philip was asking for.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (Mark 12:29)

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

You were shown these things so that you would know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides Him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)

Sand

@Neopesdom

Deep Research
 
>>>And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)
>>>Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,..."

I don't see a Trinity. These entities are just mentioned together.

>>>You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him (Romans 8:9). The Spirit of God is used interchangeably with the Spirit of Christ.
This is a good one.
Keep reading, verses 10 & 11
"But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you."
They are not used interchangeably, if you have God's spirit you will be raised with a mortal body, if you have Christ spirit you will be raised a spiritual body.

>>>Romans 16:16 uses the phrase "churches of Christ", 2 Thes. 1:4 uses the phrase churches of God.
churches of the saints - 1 Cor. 14:33
churches of the Gentiles - Rom 16:4
Maybe the Saints and the Gentiles are a part of God?

>>>Revelation 1:8 says that the Lord God is the Alpha and the Omega, in Revelation 22:13, Jesus says " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Remember the Angel actually said those words in Revelation 22:13

>>>In the Old Testament God's name is identified by four consonants YHWH, commonly articulated as Yahweh, Jehovah, or "I AM".  In John 8:58, Jesus says He is "I AM".
The words "I AM" was spoken by an Angel - The Angel was an agent - Jesus by saying those words is saying he is an agent..

>>>John 2:19-22 Jesus says He will raise Himself from the dead, 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 say God will raise Him from the Dead. In Romans 8:11 says that the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead!
Did Jesus literally raise himself from the dead?
Jesus no doubt is speaking from a prophetic sense.
Just like other prophets.
Ezekiel 43:3 - "And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face."
Jeremiah 1:10 - "Today I appoint you to stand up against nations and kingdoms. Some you must uproot and tear down, destroy and overthrow. Others you must build up and plant.”

Isaiah 6:10 - "Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

Lets go the other way for a moment. If Jesus literally raised himself from the dead, then he really was not dead. If he was not dead then he was not really raised up. If Christ was not raised up then our faith is useless. 1 Corinthians 15:17
This also conflicts with a lot of scriptures if Christ raised himself. Romans 8:11; 1 Cor 6:14; 1 Cor 15:15;  Acts 3:15; Acts 4:10; Acts 13:30;
The Holy Spirit was the instrument used to raise Christ, but in agreement with multiple scriptures God raised Jesus.

>>>Acts 13:2,  Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Here the Holy Spirit is confirmed to be a person who speaks independently for Himself. "And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,.."  (Heb. 10:15)
Wisdom is said to have children. (Luke 7:35) Proverbs chapter 8 shows wisdom speaking also.
Who really is speaking? Does the holy spirit speak through Angels, Humans, or by himself? The Bible has different answers - Matthew 10:19, 20; Acts 4:24, 25; Acts 28:25; Hebrews 2:2
The Holy Spirit is the only entity that is listed with qualities. Acts 6:3; Acts 11:24; Acts 13:52; 2 Corinthians 6:6

>>>You have not lied to man but to God.” (Acts 5:3-4) The Holy Spirit is here equated with God.
Any sin against anyone is a sin against God. If I sin against you I sin against God, it doesn't mean I equate you equal to God.
John 8:39-41 - "They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
Are the Jews saying Abraham is equal to God? By simular wording you could think so.

>>> to the glory of God the Father..Philippians 2:10-11. It is clearly evident that these two passages together reveal the identity of Jesus as God, worship is reserved for God alone.
If  Jesus is God, then why does the scripture mention "to the glory of God the Father". Obviously worship to Jesus in connection to God is appropriate. But because it separates the term God the Father from Jesus without the term God the Son, proves Jesus is not God.
The fact the scriptures intentionally reframe from calling Jesus the True God, yet it reserves this title for the Father only, proves Jesus is not on the same level.

These other scriptures show similarities, deductive reasoning, but no direct statements. If someone works in harmony with God there will be similarities.
This does not make those persons God.
Half quoting scriptures does not help the cause of honestly determining the essence of the True God.
This has be done by Trinitarians for years! The direct statements that Jesus is not God is overlooked.
Hiding the simple truth that Jesus is not God but an agent of God.

Neopesdom

@Sand ;

>>>Remember the Angel actually said those words in Revelation 22:13

And on whose behalf did this Angel convey these words? You are suggesting that the angel was speaking of himself? That would make you a willfully blind heretic.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Rev. 22:16)

Thanks for your private interpretations, but, yeah, sorry I’m just not convinced. 

Sand

@Neopesdom

Which we can go that way. But that would still prove that Jesus is not God.

Because the angel is saying the words of Jesus.

Revelation 22:9 - "But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

Jesus separates himself in spirit form from the title God, showing he is not the True God.

He also puts himself on the same level as humans.

This proves Jesus is a servant even in heaven. Which means he is a created being.

What kind of created being?

Colossians 1:15 - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

Yes the first Angel.

Plus it shows Jesus rejecting worship that he feels is due only to God meaning he is an angel.

So either way, if the angel is speaking for Jesus then it is Jesus' words.

It is not reasonable to take portions of the words and say this applies but this doesn't.

Sand

@Neopesdom

I will make this real clear.

If the Angel is an Agent for Jesus, and Jesus is God.

When John fell to worship the Angel then he could accept worship. (It is the same reason for the Angel to say he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last)

But since we are going the way of an Angel being a Agent of Jesus.

And the Angel rejected worship. This shows Jesus is not God.