God doesn't exist - Change my mind
in Religion

Erfisflat · June 2018

Judaism said:

I don'y care if you think I'm trolling or not. If you do, I'll leave this page because I don't want to be kicked out of Debate Island. I've got other things to write about.

The Zohar is divine not because of age, but because it said the world is round, that they're 7 continents, which, by the way, came out of one big one. That's just two proofs. Do you want more? The Talmud (another commentary, deals mostly with halacha) says they're 10^18 stars in the universe. Pretty huge claim, don't you think? It says on other places (agreeing with the Zohar) that man evolved, that up to Enoch's generation, their faces were monkeys. It says Adam once had a tale, and that other species of human walked around at this time. Rabbi Nachman said the Big Bang happened - he describes it actually in some great detail. But what about the age of the universe? Does Judaism say anything on that? Yes! And its not 6,000 years old! You'll read about that in my next post, but all of this proves Judaism is true. Case closed.

This is a blatant error in logic called circular reasoning (circulus in probando). The premise is that there is no physical or logical evidence for a spherical earth. Your argument is that since your preferred holy book is allegedly divine, and it says the earth is a ball (or, more specifically, "round" in your own words)

then the earth must be a ball. When asked why your holy book is divine, your answer is because it says the earth is round, amongst other lies we're told. No one will kick you off debateisland unless you break the TOS. Anyone is welcome to come and make a fool of themselves.

Judaism · June 2018

Erfisflat

Nice pic of the quarter

!

You can say that our arguments are circular reasoning, but they're really aren't. As Jews, HaShem's word is true. Period. There is no word about it. Well, how do we know its really true? How do we know the Jews received the Torah at Sinai? The evidence is all there for one to look at. After all, when was the last time you heard a voice out in the desert? Not much. Its not a natural phenomena. Things that occur once in nature are true, because it will never happen again. The Zohar, and later, the Bavli Talmud, make up part of that divine literature. So, if these books are true, and if science has discovered the exact specifications as outlined in these ancient works, then we know that ancient man could not have fathomed such knowledge. Where did it come from then? Above. And not above, as in extraterritorial life (actually, the rabbis did believe it), but from G-d. Which G-d? אֱלֹהִים. אֱלֹהִים. אֱלֹהִים.

אֱלֹהִים is our G-d.

Help me out here, I'll ask you two questions: (1) if you had to name the best proof for a flat earth, what is it? (2) what would it take to make you believe the earth is round? Would it be scientific, or Scriptural (depending if you're religiou@Erfisflat

Let's go from there. Also, I'd like to see you respond to my last post, the one about the Sefer HaTemunah and the age of the universe. Pretty interesting, is it not?

Evidence · June 2018

@PyromanGaming said So first, let's look at the first argument, which I have a few things to say about. While yes, many of the morals are great, it dodges the idea of how can we separate the uncorrupted ideas in the bible with the corrupted. Again, this is a very important question to ask if we can have a discussion about this topic, and because you agree that the bible could be corrupted but still believe that god exists, I need an answer to that on your part.

The problem man has is that Satan has so distanced us from God, that when it comes to knowing/understanding God, every Pastor, Religious Teacher, Minister, todays so called Prophets in all religions tell us that man could in no way understand God. That our minds just couldn't comprehend the concept of Infinite and Eternal God, so we just settle for what these self proclaimed Pastors, Teachers, Ministers and Popes tell us about God; The first thing is, that "He is incomprehensible" so, since we take them to be in place of God we just leave it at that. Which means that for the past 1,700 years where the RCC taken over the Biblical books and added another Religion to their existing one, which they named "Christian" (a derogatory, mocking name calling of the early Believers who were of "the Way" that started in Antioch) where, especially for the first 1,000 years no one questions such authority of the pontiff, Bishop of Rome, Holy Father, Vicar of Christ, His Holiness the Pope the idea that God is incomprehensible, unknowable so don't even try, God is just way too distant from human comprehension, ignoring the beginning Biblical history of man, that; "God Created us in His image".

Once you sit down and think about that, or at least consider that as you read through the Bible, that it is your Father, your Creator who made you in His own image talking to you, by the time you get done reading the Bible, you will learn who He is, His tone, His character, His likes and dislikes, stories of man living in obedience with, and rebelling against Him, and what He has planned for us, .. everything down to the most personal subjects, just as a child gets to know his parents.

Just think about this; what happens to kids that are raised (if they're rich) by Nannies, or (if they are poor and abandoned) by an Orphanage or Foster parents? The rich kids raised by nannies are lost, and the orphans left angry and disconnected, feel abandoned (this excludes those blessed and wonderful Foster parents who truly take the orphans as their own).

Well this is what happened to us, Satan has taken our Fathers word, took our Creator God out of it and replaced Him with, .. yes, I know how this sounds, but I can show you that it is True, the Devil has replaced our Heavenly Father with himself through Religion, fulfilling his oath: "I will be like the Most High!"

I asked many teens about God!? Their answer: "I'm not religious, .. I don't really believe in any gods, .. nor do I want to worship any god, sorry!"

does this look like the teens "don't do worship" or "don't believe in any gods"?

Erfisflat · June 2018

"You can say that our arguments are circular reasoning, but they're really aren't."

Yes, yes they are, that's exactly what they are. It's the equivelant of saying, we know the bible is true because it says so.

"As Jews, HaShem's word is true. Period. There is no word about it. Well, how do we know its really true? How do we know the Jews received the Torah at Sinai? The evidence is all there for one to look at."

Where?

"After all, when was the last time you heard a voice out in the desert?"

Sounds like that trip to Arizona when i was 19.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote

"Things that occur once in nature are true, because it will never happen again. The Zohar, and later, the Bavli Talmud, make up part of that divine literature. So, if these books are true, and if science has discovered the exact specifications as outlined in these ancient works, then we know that ancient man could not have fathomed such knowledge. Where did it come from then? Above. And not above, as in extraterritorial life (actually, the rabbis did believe it), but from G-d. Which G-d? אֱלֹהִים. אֱלֹהִים. אֱלֹהִים.

אֱלֹהִים is our G-d."

Just because some scientists are confirming your holy book doesnt mean it is true. Scientists are now finding it all to be rubbish.

"Help me out here, I'll ask you two questions: (1) if you had to name the best proof for a flat earth, what is it?"

I actually never thought this conversation would get into anything more than "muh holy book!" Here's the main reason: We see too far. Meaning there is no detectable curve. Actual tests are being performed to try and locate this alleged curve that must be there, if the earth was a ball. Nothing conclusive has been found yet.

" (2) what would it take to make you believe the earth is round?"

It would be a trip to the moon, to name one. Scriptures are too open to interpretation.

"Would it be scientific, or Scriptural (depending if you're religiou@Erfisflat "

"Let's go from there. Also, I'd like to see you respond to my last post, the one about the Sefer HaTemunah and the age of the universe. Pretty interesting, is it not?"

I have no idea who he is and i literally have zero reasons to believe him.

@Judaism

Evidence · June 2018

Erfisflat said:

"You can say that our arguments are circular reasoning, but they're really aren't."

Yes, yes they are, that's exactly what they are. It's the equivelant of saying, we know the bible is true because it says so.

"As Jews, HaShem's word is true. Period. There is no word about it. Well, how do we know its really true? How do we know the Jews received the Torah at Sinai? The evidence is all there for one to look at."

Where?

"After all, when was the last time you heard a voice out in the desert?"

Sounds like that trip to Arizona when i was 19.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote

"Things that occur once in nature are true, because it will never happen again. The Zohar, and later, the Bavli Talmud, make up part of that divine literature. So, if these books are true, and if science has discovered the exact specifications as outlined in these ancient works, then we know that ancient man could not have fathomed such knowledge. Where did it come from then? Above. And not above, as in extraterritorial life (actually, the rabbis did believe it), but from G-d. Which G-d? אֱלֹהִים. אֱלֹהִים. אֱלֹהִים.

אֱלֹהִים is our G-d."

Just because some scientists are confirming your holy book doesnt mean it is true. Scientists are now finding it all to be rubbish.

"Help me out here, I'll ask you two questions: (1) if you had to name the best proof for a flat earth, what is it?"

I actually never thought this conversation would get into anything more than "muh holy book!" Here's the main reason: We see too far. Meaning there is no detectable curve. Actual tests are being performed to try and locate this alleged curve that must be there, if the earth was a ball. Nothing conclusive has been found yet.

" (2) what would it take to make you believe the earth is round?"

It would be a trip to the moon, to name one. Scriptures are too open to interpretation.

"Would it be scientific, or Scriptural (depending if you're religiou@Erfisflat "

"Let's go from there. Also, I'd like to see you respond to my last post, the one about the Sefer HaTemunah and the age of the universe. Pretty interesting, is it not?"

I have no idea who he is and i literally have zero reasons to believe him.

@Judaism

@Erfisflat This is why it's so hard to understand the Bible, .. so many distractions, so many roads by so many Religions both Jewish and Gentile.
@Judaism flies the flag not of the Biblical "man after Gods own heart David", but the Opposer, or deceiver:

As for the information our friend "Judaism" is giving you of God is from the Kabbalah, which is a form of Jewish mysticism that is being packaged and popularized for Western consumption. Leading the “red string” craze are such celebrities as Madonna and Demi Moore (both who are actually men). In the final analysis Kabbalah is just one more dish in a smorgasbord of popular religions that distort the true meaning of Scripture and oppose the gospel of Christ.

First, Kabbalists search for mystical meanings and messages in the Torah that allegedly have power to remedy personal and social ills. Indeed, Kabbalists believe that through Kabbalah the unfettered communion with God experienced in Eden can be regained. As such, Kabbalism has more in common with the esotericism of Gnostic cults than with Christs teaching and those few that follow him as; the Way, the Truth and the Life.

P.S. I loved your answer to: "After all, when was the last time you heard a voice out in the desert?"

Sounds like that trip to Arizona when i was 19.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote

LOL

Judaism · June 2018

Evidence

You're a Christian fundamentalist who doesn't understand Kabbalah nor Jewish teaching. What you say is pure nonsense 101.

Evidence · June 2018

Judaism said:

Evidence

You're a Christian fundamentalist who doesn't understand Kabbalah nor Jewish teaching. What you say is pure nonsense 101.

@Judaism, Christian, Islam, Baptist, Catholic, Buddhist, …. all "Religions" worship one god, whose symbol is the pentagram;

Lead by the (un)holy father the RCC-Christian World Leader the vicar of the sun-god also known as Jesus.

This is why I don't associate with any Religion, especially Christian. And I understand the Kabbalah very well. Christian fundamentalists, both Catholic, denominational and non-denominational are deceived followers of the god of this world, as are those who call themselves Jews.

Image result for pic of the jewish star and the pentagram

Judaism · June 2018

Evidence

No, your an occultist who believes everyone's against you, chief among them, the Pope. He's not such a bad guy, y'know, you really ought to meet him!

As for Kabbalah, I can tell you knowledge is very shallow, especially if you believe the repackaged version is authentic.

Lastly, I stress out the fact that you misunderstand Judaism, and what it teaches. There is only one G-d, Evidence, I think it's time you put your faith in Him.

Evidence · June 2018

Judaism said:

Evidence

No, your an occultist who believes everyone's against you, chief among them, the Pope. He's not such a bad guy, y'know, you really ought to meet him!

As for Kabbalah, I can tell you knowledge is very shallow, especially if you believe the repackaged version is authentic.

Lastly, I stress out the fact that you misunderstand Judaism, and what it teaches. There is only one G-d, Evidence, I think it's time you put your faith in Him.

@Judaism "Not such a bad guy", .. yeah, what they said about this guy too:

Why do you think they made the repackaged version of the Kabbalah? The original as way out there, .. they needed a watered down version not to scare people away.

Oh I understand Judaism alright, and the "one-god" they worship. I debated this many years ago on other sights when I was still a Christian. I was trying to defend Judaism, .. or more like the Jews, until I learned more about it, especially the Kabbalah. I was so stunned, that my responses were so strong (because of my shock that Jews would think about God like that) that I got 3 Warnings for one post.

Judaism is much like the LGBT-agenda, where if you voice against either one, you are automatically labeled either an Anti-Semitic, or homophobic, which today as Israel has become the LGBT Capital of the world, the two terms have become synonymous. Is that the G_d you want me to put my faith in?

Judaism · June 2018

Evidence

I don't understand anything you say. What's your problem with Kabbalah? How do you think it views G-d?

Judaism · June 2018

Evidence

Personally, I'm not a mystic, and I'm not well-versed in Zohar, but I'll do my best.

Evidence · June 2018

Judaism said:

Evidence

I don't understand anything you say. What's your problem with Kabbalah? How do you think it views G-d?

Judaism said:

Evidence

Personally, I'm not a mystic, and I'm not well-versed in Zohar, but I'll do my best.

@Judaism
Yes, you would have to be a mystic, even a diviner specializing in divination to explain the Kabbalah, or todays Judaism flying the pentagram on a flag, or Christianity. The god in the Kabbalah is not Biblical God, but the "god of this world", or like the Christians believe; the gods of this world, at least three.

There is but One Infinite and Eternal God, and He is not designed by the doctrines of men.

PyromanGaming · June 2018

First before I begin my response sorry for taking so long. So onto the response. I will admit I did skim through your response and missed some of the points the math was making, so I will respond to that. From Warrens State Park you cannot see Chicago.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@41.9241927,-86.588503,3a,75y,268.27h,103.96t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipObCPrhcL7w_UyR3ThBPuBq2YEva8KeL_d_egxZ!2e10!3e11!6shttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipObCPrhcL7w_UyR3ThBPuBq2YEva8KeL_d_egxZ=w203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya19.5-ro-0-fo100!7i8704!8i4352

Even in the pic you showed me it's on the lake between the park and Chicago. Maybe I missed something, let me know if I did. Next, you say that the moon orbiting the earth in the way I said it did isn't compatible with math and science. Could you elaborate on that because the claim wasn't substantiated whatsoever. In response to the moon working similar to the heliocentric model it couldn't because according to the model you showed, the moon would always be parallel to the sun, meaning that the moon would be bright at the edges for people in the southern hemisphere and it would be completely bright at the northern hemisphere.

Next, I'm not saying that you said that the sun would be dimmer, I'm saying it would have to be dimmer compared to the heliocentric model. The theory of gravity you present is basically the same as the heliocentric model, correct me if I'm wrong. The heliocentric theory is that gravity is a force that gets stronger the more mass an object has. Everything is affected by gravity the same, so a planet would fall the same distance as a pebble, as long as there is no resistance stopping the objects, such as air in earth's case.

Erfisflat · June 2018

@PyromanGaming said

"From Warrens State Park you cannot see Chicago."

This is pure assertion. There are numerous photos of Chicago taken from Warren dunes as well as other places across Lake Michigan, proving that, less the waves, the lake is flat and level from one side to the other, a distance of up to 57 miles. The meteorologist confirms where the photo was taken from, and the image you provided was lacking any zoom, and we have no way of telling even which direction the camera was pointed.

https://joshuanowicki.smugmug.com/Looking-toward-Chicago-from-Mi/

https://www.abc57.com/news/mirage-of-chicago-skyline-seen-from-michigan-shoreline

It is illogical for you to simply assert that the image isn't real (if that's what your attempt is here) and merely put up a random photograph with little explanation as supporting evidence.

"Even in the pic you showed me it's on the lake between the park and Chicago."

The image was taken from atop a large dune, this is why you don't see the shoreline, if this is your reasoning, and if your claim is that the distance is not correct, due to the observer being in a boat, much closer to Chicago, have a look at the first link to see that the elevation is higher than could be possible, if from the deck of a boat. If this is not your argument, feel free to clarify and correct me.

"Next, you say that the moon orbiting the earth in the way I said it did isn't compatible with math and science."

This argument has become redundant. It started with what appeared to be an eclipses argument turned phases of the moon argument, both of which were proved to be false, and were seemingly dropped. Now, it has turned into the mere assertion that the moon orbits the earth, with no explanation or supporting evidence. I ask you to logically examine your assertion, and ask yourself "is examining an object in the sky relevant to the conclusion?" Does the foundation worker, when checking the grade on a construction site, first examine the tops of the trees around the site to test for a level grade?

" In response to the moon working similar to the heliocentric model it couldn't because according to the model you showed, the moon would always be parallel to the sun, meaning that the moon would be bright at the edges for people in the southern hemisphere and it would be completely bright at the northern hemisphere."

The moon travels at a different rate than the sun, therefore it is not "always parallel the sun", and the brightness of each varies, depending on the incidence of angle. I'm still unsure of how " brightness" supports your argument or how it is even relevant to it.

"Next, I'm not saying that you said that the sun would be dimmer, I'm saying it would have to be dimmer compared to the heliocentric model."

Why? When comparing the distances to the sun, not only does that change, but also the size and "brightness" too.

"The theory of gravity you present is basically the same as the heliocentric model, correct me if I'm wrong."

Not exactly. In my model, up is up and down is down, exactly as we perceive. In yours, there is no up or down, only "centers" of spheres(or any other mass), which are allegedly attracted to each other, depending on mass and distance.

Judaism · June 2018

Evidence

Proof to me its not the same G-d of the Bible.

Evidence · June 2018

Judaism said:

Evidence

Proof to me its not the same G-d of the Bible.

@Judaism You want proof? Look at the flag you're flying.

Judaism · June 2018

Evidence

So you believe that Kabbalah is a fraud because the modern state of Israel is a fraud. You're an anti-Zionist, aren't you? You probably believe I'm really a Khazar/white European who's faking he's Jewish? Well. . . let me tell you this. . . it won't work. That theory is total hogwash.

Evidence · June 2018

Judaism said:

Evidence

So you believe that Kabbalah is a fraud because the modern state of Israel is a fraud. You're an anti-Zionist, aren't you? You probably believe I'm really a Khazar/white European who's faking he's Jewish? Well. . . let me tell you this. . . it won't work. That theory is total hogwash.

@Judaism fine then, tell me who you are? Explain it to me so I have something besides your Religious beliefs to go on? What make YOU one of the chosen ones?

My mothers maiden name was "Rabbi Julianna", .. her Grandmother who was a maid to a Jewish Rabbi (back then it was common to make your last name according to your occupation; My fathers last name was in Hungarian "Szabo", or tailor in English etc.) .. who got her pregnant and had a son who was my grandpa on my mothers side. From what I understand, Hitler had a Jewish association in a similar way!?
This is why Christ came to put an end to human confusion, with all the interbreeding of the Children of Israel, no one can really say he is Jew, or Benjamite, or claim they are the "chosen ones" by descent. This genealogy practice ended with Christ, which was only kept till the birth of the Savior/Messiah to "fulfill the Prophesies".

From here on, it is once again those who follow Gods teaching as it was in the beginning, only now, it is those who through His son Word aka Jesus Christ who are children of God. So it is neither Jew or Gentile, neither slave or free, but those of us who are lead by Gods Holy Spirit, and are baptized in Christ who are Gods children.

So it's like @Erfisflat keeps saying: "But, but my holy-book" will not justify or save you. The Bible has all the information on who can be, and will become a Child of God, thus "saved" in great detail. There is no Black or White, no Jew or Gentile, no Greek, African, Mexican, Indian, Hungarian, Jew, Arab or even, .. yes, not even German nationality that will save anyone, .. ONLY Christ.

Judaism · June 2018

@Evidence,

Ah ha! Now I know we're you're coming from!

You're a Jew for Jesus, no wonder! No wonder you've lost your Jewish heritage, you're now Christian. Mazel Tov!

You're no longer Jewish, you've left the fold, you've abandoned everything. Hitler wasn't Jewish, there is no evidence for that, but great job comparing yourself to him. Good move. I'm Jewish by my grandmother's side, she was obviously ashkenazi (if you even know what that means). What makes us special? There you go, "special"! We're not "special," we're only chosen to serve you, the Gentiles, to be a light to the nations. Everyone and his brother knows it, had you been raised Jewish. . . .

There are no prophecies which Jesus fulfilled. None. Zip. Zero. Anything you can point too has been either invented, or taken grossly out of context. And did I also say purposefully mistranslated?

Your point is that G-d willingly abandoned His chosen nation for a spiritual community of Christians. Let's check if that's possible.

The following is from my blog:

What makes up the contents of a covenant? Firstly, it is eternal (Genesis 17:9-10, Exodus 12:17, 31:16, Deuteronomy 4:40), and secondly, it must be a pact between two parties or more (Genesis 21:27).

The prophet Ezekiel was quick to point out the first fact in the Messianic Age:

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My spirit within you and bring it about that you will walk in My statutes and you will keep My ordinances and do [them]." (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

If Christians are right, and we're wrong, please explain me this verse:

"So said Adonai: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.'" (Zechariah 8:23).

Christians, such as you, love quoting Jeremiah 31:30. . . out of context.

Below is the passage in full, not just the isolated verse. This is where you fail to see accuracy in the text, and it's why we Jews would rather die by the sword than convert.

"Behold, days are coming, says Adonai, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says Adonai. For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says Adonai: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their G-d and they shall be My people, and no longer shall one teach his neighbor or one teach his brother, saying, 'Know Adonai,' for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says Adonai, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember." (Jeremiah 31:30-33 )

Since Jesus walked the earth 2,000 years ago, has any of this happened? Has all the world, Jew and Gentile alike, recognize the one G-d of Israel? If so, why are Christian Missionaries still spending billions of dollars a year on endless conversions throughout the world? Why doesn't everyone already know G-d? Furthermore, where are the ten lost tribes as verse 33 clearly states will be unified again?

Perhaps the only reason Christians try quoting Jeremiah 31:30 [31] out of context is because they're excited that it mentions a new covenant, and in your ears, this means Jesus. You've got to remember, this text is graphic, meaning, we should take it in its literal sense: So what does it say? It says at the inception of this new covenant, G-d will write His commandments in our hearts (they won't be done away with as Paul believed) and the whole world will know G-d when the real Messiah steps forward.

Yes, G-d will have a new covenant, but it'll be based on the same, eternal Torah. The Torah of Moses.

Moreover, even though you're half right, that we did break with G-d's covenant (Jeremiah 11:10, Ezekiel 16:59), G-d firmly affirms us that He'll always forgive us, and renew His relationship with us as attested to in Ezekiel 16:60, " I will remember My covenant with you of the days of your youth, and I will establish it for you as an everlasting covenant.”

Similarly, we can find a parallel to this in Leviticus 26:15, where G-d tells us that the people of Israel will face terrible loss and punishment for their sins if they disobey Him. G-d even went to the point of threatening to annul His covenant with us. But then, we get verses 44:45, what do they say?

The G-d of Israel promises us:

“. . . When they are in the land of their enemies, I will not be disgusted with them, nor will I abhor them to destroy them and break My covenant with them, for I am Adonai their G-d. And I will remember the covenant with the first ones, whom I took out of the Land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a G-d for them. I am Adonai.”

And it doesn't end there, all throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, G-d repeatedly states that He will never replace us with another nation (not even a spiritual one), and that His covenant with Israel is eternal. Below are some brief examples:

Ezekiel 20:32-37, Isaiah 54:8-10, Psalms 105:8-10, and Genesis 17:7.

Do you believe in the G-d of Israel? If so, then why are you choosing to cherry-pick passages and verses to promote the false dogma that G-d abandoned us in favor of a spiritual nation? Can Jesus change the word of G-d?

"So said Adonai, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name. If these laws depart from before Me, says Adonai, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time. So said Adonai: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says Adonai." (Jeremiah 31:34-36)

So, we've not just isolated 31:30, but seen the whole passage in full. Going by Christian logic, it is impossible to take G-d seriously, for He would have had to have lied to have rejected Israel for the spiritual Christian nation when He Himself made the standard that such a thing would never be possible until the foundations of the universe can be measured (which, I'll just add, we're far from doing!). That alone, puts to rest anything the Church as ever had to offer the Jewish nation. Remember, I didn't have to use a rabbinic interpretation here, just by looking at Scripture alone, will Christian dogma demolish at its feet.

You can never refute this. There was once a famous rabbi from the Talmud who said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that every time a Christian puts forth an argument, look at the verse/passage before or after it, and you can always refute him with ease.

Again, all we Jews have to do is brush aside you're isolated verses and look at the passage in full, because the answer to you people is always the next verse. . . and that's why Dr. Brown will never succeed in converting us, and neither will you.

Remember how we discovered that there is nothing in the verse or passage which mentions a covenant being established more than once, or at an earlier date? Remember how important it is to suggest correctly that Jesus could not have established a new covenant but failed to fulfill the prophecy in its fullest?

All of these arguments must be dealt with if we're going to even consider Jesus a candidate for the Jewish Messiah.

But before I end with this, let’s take a moment to talk about seed. “Seed,” in Hebrew, is “zer’-ah.” There are plenty of verses all throughout the Hebrew Bible which make it all too clear that “zer’-ah” can only mean physical children, and not a spiritual body, as in the congregants of the Church. There is a Hebrew word for metaphoric/spiritual children, and it’s not “zer’-ah.” In fact, out of all 203 references, there is not one occasion where the Scriptures ever say that “zer’-ah” is spiritual. This knockout blow to the Church is staggering, and it has never recovered. Examples of verses pulled from Tanakh are Genesis 1:11. 3:15, 12:7, and 15:1-6

There is, however, a counter-argument to this. In Isaiah 57:4, Christians tells us that the “seed of falsehood” proves that “zer’-ah” can sometimes mean a spiritual seed. I’d be careful with this, and that is because in Hebrew, the adjective follows the noun, hence, it really should be flipped when rendered in English, and that comes out as “false seed.” In context, the passage is really telling us about children who’ve been corrupted to kill. Physical children. Hence, if we were to spin it the other way, can a concept such as falsehood have babies? Do you see how ridiculous it all sounds?

Evidence, do you know Hebrew? Probably not. It's no worth arguing against me than. You'll just lose every time.

I have just one last counter-argument:

According to Christian teaching (we're talking 'eternal security' here, any Nazi, at the moment of death, can accept Jesus and be saved. . . but what about those poor 6 million who loved G-d with all their heart, who willingly sent themselves to the ovens to be slaughtered? They never heard of Jesus? Would the god of the New Testament dare be a monster and punish them for all time? Abraham said: "Will the Judge of the entire earth not perform justice!"

These are some mighty questions for Christians, ones you should think about. After all, eternity is at stake.

George_Horse · June 2018

I too am an atheist. I myself have never found any credible evidence that would prove the existence of a god. You can only believe in a god through faith, not evidence, it is the same for anything else. You cannot believe in something without evidence.

PyromanGaming · June 2018

I'll take a moment to respond to these arguments.

First, @Evidence you still don't separate what is corrupted with what is uncorrupted. You seem to contradict yourself with these quotes:

"The problem man has is that Satan has so distanced us from God, that when it comes to knowing/understanding God, every Pastor, Religious Teacher, Minister, todays so called Prophets in all religions tell us that man could in no way understand God."

Then you said:

"Once you sit down and think about that, or at least consider that as you read through the Bible, that it is your Father, your Creator who made you in His own image talking to you, by the time you get done reading the Bible, you will learn who He is, His tone, His character, His likes and dislikes, stories of man living in obedience with, and rebelling against Him, and what He has planned for us, .. everything down to the most personal subjects, just as a child gets to know his parents."

This is problematic. You first provide no evidence for this claim, and second let's say you're right. Satan has corrupted the bible. Wouldn't he have made it so that you should worship Satan instead of god? And how can we know that God in the bible is actually disguised as Satan in that case? It looks like you went through a cherry picking session. The evolution claim correct me if I'm wrong you conceded and you admit that the bible is corrupted, provide no substantiation that it's only barely corrupted, and then picked up everything that would make it so that nothing in your beliefs change with no other reason but plain desire, no evidence. I apologize if I sound annoyed here but I just can't stand the fact that people only worship their religion because of pure desire. My parents did as well. If this is all of the evidence you have, it sounds like the reason you have for believing in god is an emotional appeal rather than pure reason. I do think that dressing like you showed in the pictures is wrong, for my own personal reasons that I have critically thought about, but this does not prove your case. This is due to the human's natural lust, rather than an evil spirit making people want to have sex for pleasure. Why else do you think that people only start to get lustful at around 12? If not later?

Now, let's go to @Erfisflat:

So about the Chicago shoreline, which showed something that I forgot about. It talks about something called a "superior mirage". In fact, I think you should read the whole article for info:

https://www.abc57.com/news/mirage-of-chicago-skyline-seen-from-michigan-shoreline

I remember one time I went whale watching and I saw some islands that looked like cliffs from far away, but then turned out to be flat. Here are some other pics I got that were similar to what I saw when whale watching:

Image result for superior mirage

So now to the moon argument. I'm a little confused. Maybe I missed this but from what I saw there is no substantiation that you provided that shows that the round earth model of the moon is correct. In fact you even say in your rebuttal how the moon and the sun go at different rates, which explains the phases of the moon in both models. How do you explain the shadow on the moon in your model? It couldn't be the flat earth or else it would look like an ellipsoid because of the angles of the shadows.

@Judaism, it seems like you only want to debate with @Evidence and @Erfisflat, so I'll leave you alone for now. Feel free to talk to me personally about this.

And finally, @George_Horse, I still don't believe that there is any reason to believe in god. I have long looked. I've looked at the "knock down" arguments such as the teleological argument, the cosmological argument, and the ontological argument, which all have so many flaws to them. If you haven't seen them, I recommend you should. In fact, anyone reading this should. The idea that you can only believe in god with faith is true. I was once a Roman Catholic myself due to my upbringing, just like 99.99% of all religious people. However I soon realized that there is no evidence that a god exists and that there is evidence against a god in any religion, so I turned atheist. How did you become atheist?

Anyways, thank you everyone for participating.

Judaism · June 2018

PyromanGaming

I have never heard his claim before. If Evidence truly believes that Satan (not G-d's enemy, as our tradition teaches), wrote the Bible and corrupted it, he is far from truth. The Torah never teaches a flat earth, to the disgust of many on this site.

Personally, I'm Jewish, and that means Orthodox. I'm cool with you being an atheist, I see no problem with that as long as you don't attack my beliefs (which seems unlikely as you are a highly intelligent individual and beyond that). In fact, if I may say this without any objections, my faith believes that atheist can go to heaven, as long as they led decent lives like everyone else. This is because G-d doesn't punish us for what we don't know, its one of the 13 Middot. Take care.

Erfisflat · June 2018

"So about the Chicago shoreline, which showed something that I forgot about. It talks about something called a "superior mirage". In fact, I think you should read the whole article for info:"

Yes, I have read all of the conjecture that was offered to the gullible meant to explain this proof of common sense flat water. First I want to clarify your position[s] on the Chicago skyline. First, I believe you claimed the image was taken from much closer, and the image is therefore possible. Now you concede the fact that the image is impossible, but are now in support of this image being a mirage. Are you willingly clinging to any and everything to dismiss this evidence for God? You claim to have "long looked", why are you ignoring what you've been seeking? First, the evidence:

Now, the images you shared are indeed superior mirages, and you can tell because they share one defining characteristic. Image inversion.

When any sort of scrutiny is applied, the ad hoc excuses are found to be false, as is the case with many excuses for the errors in the globe earth model. As there are inversions in ALL mirages, the image provided could not possibly be a mirage. You'll find the definition from a joint university study on mirages conducted by the world's leading expert on mirages as:

...Superior mirage

Here the inverted image is above the erect one. Caused by a layer of hot air not far overhead (a "thermal inversion".) Like the inferior mirage, this looks much like a simple reflection. Astronomical objects cannot appear in a simple superior mirage...

https://aty.sdsu.edu/mirages/mirtypes.html

"How do you explain the shadow on the moon in your model? It couldn't be the flat earth or else it would look like an ellipsoid because of the angles of the shadows."

Well we know now, by looking at selenelions, and noticing your concession, that the earth could never come between the sun and moon, so we can rule this out as evidence for a spherical earth. That's about as far as I've explored eclipses. I ruled the earth out as a possibility. There are, of course, theories. One being the idea of a 3rd celestial body called Rahu. My personal opinion is that it does not matter. You don't even need a "spherical" object to produce a round shadow, see.

@PyromanGaming

Judaism · June 2018

Erfisflat

Good argument, just not good enough.

Erfisflat · June 2018

Judaism said:

Erfisflat

Good argument, just not good enough.

Please, tell us what the Zohar says about selenelions.

PyromanGaming · June 2018

@Erfisflat:

So there are a few things I want to respond to:

"Astronomical objects cannot appear in a simple superior mirage..."

This looks like a legitimate source. However, define "astronomical" in this context. It can mean either very large, or relating to astronomy. If it means in this context very large, this could discredit my argument. We can go from there with the other arguments. The thing is that for me to believe in something I need to know that all evidence points for it or at least most. If it means relating to astronomy, this argument is irrelevant because skyscrapers have nothing to do with astronomy. I have no idea in what context this may be.

In response to the selenelion argument, I don't think that this argument is relevant. When you look at where the feet of the wasp is in the image, you can see that the shadow is produced because there are dips in the water. In this case, the bug is affecting the water in such a way that it makes a shadow. Here, I'll pull up the image for reference:

Image: https://78.media.tumblr.com/6d14bee936d31545e68cef5b481bd0a6/tumblr_mj4auubETx1qzicj3o1_1280.jpg

Look at the distortion of the water where the feet are. If you look closely, you can notice that they form a circular shape, similar to the shadows shown below. What distortion of space would produce the moon's shadow?

Erfisflat · June 2018

"This looks like a legitimate source. However, define "astronomical" in this context. It can mean either very large, or relating to astronomy. If it means in this context very large, this could discredit my argument. We can go from there with the other arguments. The thing is that for me to believe in something I need to know that all evidence points for it or at least most. If it means relating to astronomy, this argument is irrelevant because skyscrapers have nothing to do with astronomy. I have no idea in what context this may be."

Astronomical, in this context is referring to celestial bodies, of course. It's not really the source that makes the difference, it's whether or not the information is verifiable. The statement does not make the argument irrelevant, as celestial bodies can mirage.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_of_astronomical_objects

The first part is talking about terrestrial mirages, which is what the Chicago skyline is. The particular statement you referenced is irrelevant, but I included it so as not to appear to be quote mining. Even the Chicago skyline can contain a mirage, though the image I provided isn't a mirage, and the evidence stands.

http://www.mlive.com/weather/index.ssf/2017/04/superior_mirages_over_chicago.html

"In response to the selenelion argument, I don't think that this argument is relevant. When you look at where the feet of the wasp is in the image, you can see that the shadow is produced because there are dips in the water. In this case, the bug is affecting the water in such a way that it makes a shadow. Here, I'll pull up the image for reference:

Look at the distortion of the water where the feet are. If you look closely, you can notice that they form a circular shape, similar to the shadows shown below. What distortion of space would produce the moon's shadow?"

Are you assuming that there must be a distortion of "space"? Maybe you misunderstand my position, when I say the heliocentric model is wrong, I mean literally ALL of it is. The above image is a distortion due to surface tension. This is but one possibility for the shadow on the moon. As I said, the argument was that the earth casts a round shadow on the moon, this was found to be false, and the argument is dismissed.

@PyromanGaming

Erfisflat · June 2018

Judaism said:

Erfisflat

Good argument, just not good enough.

Could you also explain what this statement means? I mean you worded it in a way that is contradictory to you position.

"The Torah never teaches a flat earth, to the disgust of many on this site." -Judaism

This means that "many on this site" are "disgusted" that the Torah "never teaches a flat earth". I speak a bit of dvmbass, so I translated that into: The torah never teaches a flat earth. Many on this site are disgusted by the flat earth.

I'm pretty sure you're one of a very few on this site that gives two sh!ts about the Torah, and how do you know how people feel about the flat earth? What would disgust anyone about the freedom from a huge lie? I guess maybe if you're also a liar, it could disgust you.

Judaism · June 2018

Erfisflat

I care more for Torah than you ever would, unless you change. Your arguments are futile and pure nonsense. It has no equal with truth.

Judaism · June 2018

Erfisflat

I'm not sure if the Zohar mentions anything about selenelions.

Erfisflat · June 2018

"I care more for Torah than you ever would, unless you change."

I totally agree, which is what I said, here:

"I'm pretty sure you're one of a very few on this site that gives two sh!ts about the Torah..."

Are you just agreeing with me now?

"Your arguments are futile and pure nonsense. It has no equal with truth."

Yet you are ignorantly silent on any scientific basis, instead you cling to a book written by men.

My arguments are sound, and as of now, stand tall. You're more than welcome to correct any errors in fact or logic, my guess is you're just here to promote your blog and affirm your empty headed belief system. Still waiting on a good reason to think you are on a spinning ball from you.

@Judaism

Erfisflat · June 2018

Judaism said:

Erfisflat

Good argument, just not good enough.

Remember saying this? The exact opposite of this:

Judaism said:

Erfisflat

I care more for Torah than you ever would, unless you change. Your arguments are futile and pure nonsense. It has no equal with truth.

You're displaying conflicting opinions, a clear sign of cognitive dissonance.

Judaism · June 2018

Erfisflat

You can't understand a good joke. I was merely making fun of you when I wrote: "Good argument, just not good enough."

Erfisflat · June 2018

Judaism said:

Erfisflat

You can't understand a good joke. I was merely making fun of you when I wrote: "Good argument, just not good enough."

PyromanGaming · June 2018

@Erfisflat,

First of all, in what way is the Chicago skyline not a mirage. You give no substantiated evidence for this. I will show you why it is. The source I will be using is this:

http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/elements/supmrge.htm

"Towering is quite common in polar regions and during the summer near large bodies of relatively cold water when compared to the overlying air temperatures. Such situations are common along North America's Pacific Northwest coastline during the summer. Towering can make coastal mountains appear to rise and fall in height throughout the course of the day when seen from across cold ocean waters. The illusion formed is of the peaks looming higher, and thus the mountains appear closer than they actually are."

Here are some diagrams of this from the same source:

Towering Under Superior Mirage

These are two ways that the image you present could have happened. There. Debunked. Next, let's look at the moon dispute. So for reference, I will be pulling up the model you used in a previous argument:

The only difference you apparently would make is that the moon goes at a different rate than the sun. Here is my source for the following info:

https://moon.nasa.gov/about/misconceptions/

"Everyone sees the same phases of the Moon, but people south of the equator who face North to see the Moon when it is high in the sky will see the Moon upside down so that the reverse side is lit."

In your model, people south of the equator would see something different from what people north would see because of the positioning of the sun and moon. And if both the sun and the moon were on top of the earth, how could the earth's shadow even block the light coming straight into the moon without any obstacles? If they're both above the earth, there would be no obstacles!

Finally, no I wasn't making a strawman of your argument by asking what distortion of space would produce the moon's shadow. I was making a funny joke. With your claim that objects that aren't round can make round shadows, I assumed that was what you thought the moon's shadow was made by. Distortion of space like this is impossible.

Erfisflat · June 2018

@PyromanGaming

"First of all, in what way is the Chicago skyline not a mirage. You give no substantiated evidence for this. I will show you why it is. The source I will be using is this:"

Ok... To clarify your (updated) position...

First, the image could have been fake or the camera was much closer to the skyline, and it is therefore possible. Then that changed to it is a superior mirage. Now that these arguments are found to be in error, a new type of mirage (not actually a mirage, which I will get to): towering. I ask you once again, are you willingly clinging to any and every excuse to dismiss this evidence for God? Is it so hard to believe your own eyes that you are willing to suck up whatever nonsensical thing explains this obviously flat lake of water that contradicts the ball earth model?

First of all, despite your continued assertions, this is not a mirage, simply because there is no image inversion. From the experts' joint university study.

"The four types named in the title all involve refraction anomalies, but without inverted or multiple images — and therefore without mirages."

https://aty.sdsu.edu/mirages/mirsims/loom/loom.html

Towering is simply a stretching, due to a thermal inversion. Here is an example of towering, from the study.

This is what the tower originally looks like, minus the refraction. As you can see, towering and stooping causes the tower to shrink or stretch, and the image is greatly deformed, undergoing many changes in this shoot. This is agreed with in your source with: "Towering can make coastal mountains appear to rise and fall in height throughout the course of the day when seen from across cold ocean waters."

This would mean that a consistent Chicago skyline would NOT be a tower refraction phenomenon, correct? Would the buildings in Chicago remain consistent all day long and into the night if this were anything but a real sighting?

There are quite a few time lapses that show exactly this.

http://lmgtfy.com/?t=v&q=Joshua+nowicki+youtube+channel

Your eyes do not deceive you, this is evidence for God. I realize this is a bit hard to swallow, but swallow it you must. These curvature tests are being performed all over God's flat earth and NO curvature has been found to date. This completely destroys the globe earth model.

http://lmgtfy.com/?t=v&q=Earth+curvature+test

I suppose now you will either move the goalposts, again, or concede.

The moon.
You've offered a link to a new argument it would seem. People in the southern hemisphere see the sun and moon from different angles because they are close. The observer in the southern hemisphere will be looking northward more or less to see the moon and the observer in the north would be looking south. The observers are facing each other.

"In your model, people south of the equator would see something different from what people north would see because of the positioning of the sun and moon."

Yes, a mental exercise would be to stand in a room with a large arrow on the ceiling, facing away from you, or upside down. An observer opposite you in the same room would see the same arrow, but from a different angle, facing towards them, or, rightside up. It's a simple matter of perception.

"And if both the sun and the moon were on top of the earth, how could the earth's shadow even block the light coming straight into the moon without any obstacles?
If they're both above the earth, there would be no obstacles!"

Not exactly, there would be no apparent obstacle, which leaves the flat earth model open for discussion, and as you have conceded the chance of a spherical earth intercepting the light from the sun on the moon, that point is moot.

"Finally, no I wasn't making a strawman of your argument by asking what distortion of space would produce the moon's shadow. I was making a funny joke. With your claim that objects that aren't round can make round shadows, I assumed that was what you thought the moon's shadow was made by. Distortion of space like this is impossible."

Baby steps, before we go discussing "space" as you know it, (it isn't) let's finish discussing the earth.

Evidence · June 2018

Judaism said:

@Evidence,

Judaism - Ah ha! Now I know we're you're coming from!
You're a Jew for Jesus, no wonder! No wonder you've lost your Jewish heritage, you're now Christian. Mazel Tov!

I specifically said: "From here on, it is once again those who follow Gods teaching as it was in the beginning, only now, it is those who through His son Word aka Jesus Christ who are children of God. So it is neither Jew or Gentile, neither slave or free, but those of us who are lead by Gods Holy Spirit, and are baptized in Christ who are Gods children." The N.T. of Bible completes Gods promise to bring us, all of us created in Gods image back to Himself, but you must be willing. "Muh-holy-book" will not help you, nor will all the Black-Tesseract cubes fastened to your forehead, or flying the Pentagram on your flag no matter what you call it.

Judaism - You're no longer Jewish, you've left the fold, you've abandoned everything. Hitler wasn't Jewish, there is no evidence for that, but great job comparing yourself to him. Good move. I'm Jewish by my grandmother's side, she was obviously ashkenazi (if you even know what that means). What makes us special? There you go, "special"! We're not "special," we're only chosen to serve you, the Gentiles, to be a light to the nations. Everyone and his brother knows it, had you been raised Jewish. . . .

We have all become "like Hitler" in Gods eyes, until we confess our sins, and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and repent, .. and: "sin-no-more". If we fail, Jesus is there, just as the fiery serpent that Moses lifted up on the staff, and whomever looked upon it lived, survived the bite of the deadly serpent, God lifted up His son Word aka Jesus Christ, John 3:16
How about you, who or what do you look upon? What, the Jewish flag?
Or do you think killing, shedding the blood of a few lambs or doves will save you? What saves you Judaism, .. you think it's your righteous deeds, your Religion, your Holy-books like the Kabballah, what, .. please tell me?

Judaism - There are no prophecies which Jesus fulfilled. None. Zip. Zero. Anything you can point too has been either invented, or taken grossly out of context. And did I also say purposefully mistranslated?

Amazing, here, please read this:

2 Cor 3:
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— (not afraid to say Gods name "I Am", or afraid to write God as only 'G_d')
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Judaism - Your point is that G-d willingly abandoned His chosen nation for a spiritual community of Christians. Let's check if that's possible.

The following is from my blog:

What makes up the contents of a covenant? Firstly, it is eternal (Genesis 17:9-10, Exodus 12:17, 31:16, Deuteronomy 4:40), and secondly, it must be a pact between two parties or more (Genesis 21:27).

Yes, GODS covenant with whomever He made it with is "eternal", .. until we break it. God made a covenant with Solomon, .. and kept His Covenant with him, until Solomon started to worship the same god whose symbol Jews fly on their flag, .. Baphomet the male/female deity which is why Jews made their Country the LGBT capital of the world, .. who is also known as Satan, the serpent of old.

Judaism - The prophet Ezekiel was quick to point out the first fact in the Messianic Age:
"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My spirit within you and bring it about that you will walk in My statutes and you will keep My ordinances and do [them]." (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

Tell me, what was wrong with the Old-Heart of the Chosen Ones, the holy nation of Israel? What could they have done to make God hate them and make such a promise as you mentioned above? Did Gods chosen beget a heart of stone, and maybe even killed the Messiah?? Could 2 Cor 3:12-18 be referring to this?
Naaaww, right? Your Kabballah explains that it was Gods fault all along, .. that God just didn't understand His own Prophesies, which is why the Rabbi's, the new Pharesees and teaxchers of the Law had to put everything mentioned in the O.T. in proper perspective, right? Just like the creators of the Christian Religion, the RCC, .. they knew better who God is, and who Jesus is than God of the Bible himself.
Christians and the Kabbalists are there to help God out. The Christians made Jesus their sun-god, and the Jews still keep him murdered, and buried, and replaced his Father with Baphomet.

Judaism - If Christians are right, and we're wrong, please explain me this verse:

Hey my debating friend Judaism, can you please try to understand that I am NOT a Christian, but a "Follower of The Way"! I don't worship men deified as God, nor is my God plural, made up of three gods as in the Trinity Doctrine. The RCC under Constantine adopted the derogatory name Christian that the Gentiles were calling the Messianic Jews in Antioch, those who were followers of "The Way". This would be similar to us calling a group "Goodie-two-shoes", which offended the early Believers something awful. Peter in one of his letters comforting them said:

1 Peter 4:16

Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter

Judaism - "So said Adonai: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.'" (Zechariah 8:23).
Christians, such as you, love quoting Jeremiah 31:30. . . out of context.

Below is the passage in full, not just the isolated verse. This is where you fail to see accuracy in the text, and it's why we Jews would rather die by the sword than convert.

"Behold, days are coming, says Adonai, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says Adonai. For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says Adonai: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their G-d and they shall be My people, and no longer shall one teach his neighbor or one teach his brother, saying, 'Know Adonai,' for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says Adonai, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember." (Jeremiah 31:30-33 )
Since Jesus walked the earth 2,000 years ago, has any of this happened? Has all the world, Jew and Gentile alike, recognize the one G-d of Israel? If so, why are Christian Missionaries still spending billions of dollars a year on endless conversions throughout the world? Why doesn't everyone already know G-d? Furthermore, where are the ten lost tribes as verse 33 clearly states will be unified again?

Yes, it is so now just as Jerimiah said: saying, 'Know Adonai,' for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says Adonai, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember."
Through Christ. Anyone today who accepts Christ (NOT the Christian sun-god Jesus) but Jesus Christ the Messiah, and then confess their sins one to another and repent, .. then "Adonai will hold up His end and will forgive their iniquity, and their sin He will no longer remember!"
But why would God do that when as you can see that both Gentile and Jew still worship false gods? Look at the flag the Jews are flying, and their Kabalistic interpretation of God, and even though the New-Christian denominations interpret pretty much the whole Bible correctly, they still will not give up their false gods, like the Trinity-gods and/or make the son of God Word something else like the JW's, 7DA, Mormons, and the rest of the tens of thousands of denominations do!
It's just as it was Prophesied on Gods end, He will keep His part, but if you read the N.T. you would see that there are warnings:

Romans 9:7 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

Luke 13:22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’
26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’
27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

Judaism - Perhaps the only reason Christians try quoting Jeremiah 31:30 [31] out of context is because they're excited that it mentions a new covenant, and in your ears, this means Jesus. You've got to remember, this text is graphic, meaning, we should take it in its literal sense: So what does it say? It says at the inception of this new covenant, G-d will write His commandments in our hearts (they won't be done away with as Paul believed) and the whole world will know G-d when the real Messiah steps forward.
Yes, G-d will have a new covenant, but it'll be based on the same, eternal Torah. The Torah of Moses.

The New Covenant is not some strange teaching like you have in the Kabballah and Christians have in their Trinity-Doctrines, but as you said, .. look:

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Judaism - Moreover, even though you're half right, that we did break with G-d's covenant (Jeremiah 11:10, Ezekiel 16:59), G-d firmly affirms us that He'll always forgive us, and renew His relationship with us as attested to in Ezekiel 16:60, " I will remember My covenant with you of the days of your youth, and I will establish it for you as an everlasting covenant.”

Similarly, we can find a parallel to this in Leviticus 26:15, where G-d tells us that the people of Israel will face terrible loss and punishment for their sins if they disobey Him. G-d even went to the point of threatening to annul His covenant with us. But then, we get verses 44:45, what do they say?

The G-d of Israel promises us:
“. . . When they are in the land of their enemies, I will not be disgusted with them, nor will I abhor them to destroy them and break My covenant with them, for I am Adonai their G-d. And I will remember the covenant with the first ones, whom I took out of the Land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a G-d for them. I am Adonai.”

You still don't see/understand, now ask yourself: "Why would God keep remembering the covenant He made with the Children of Israel, .. why? Is it because He had enough of their sins that brings them all the pain and suffering in this world and they just would not change? Do you think God will say to a wicked thief as he is robbing a house and then raping the women; "OK, I won't punish you, I will now remember my covenant I made with you! I will not go back on my word even though your sins are piling up to Heaven!" ??

Of course not. God has to see that we have a desire to change, .. just like in Egypt, after 400 years, the Children of Israel finally had enough suffering, and started to cry out to the Lord:

Exodus 3:7 And the Lord said: “I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. 8 So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey,

Well the same promise of Him sending a Deliverer, a Messiah to save us is here, .. much greater than Moses, and Holier and more righteous than King David, yet the Jews with the Romans killed him. Murdered an innocent and righteous man.
No, I'm not talking about Enoch, or this book claimed to be his writings. You know whom I'm talking about, the one who fulfilled hundreds of prophesies, here is 353 that these Christians list:

http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html

Only take out the ones refer to him as God, like #22 (John 4:26, 8:58) and such, which Christians try to twist that he claimed to be the Great "I Am", when it is clear he said that he was before Abraham, and not that he was the "I Am".

Judaism - And it doesn't end there, all throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, G-d repeatedly states that He will never replace us with another nation (not even a spiritual one), and that His covenant with Israel is eternal. Below are some brief examples:

Ezekiel 20:32-37, Isaiah 54:8-10, Psalms 105:8-10, and Genesis 17:7.

As I said, God did NOT create Jews, or ONLY the Children of Israel, nor have the 'Children of Israel' represented God in any acceptable way like keeping the Law that was given to them specifically. So God turns again to the whole world, meaning all of Adams descendants, all who were created in Gods image. Being the Chosen people will not save ANYONE, the wages of sin is "death"!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Isaiah 55:6 “Seek the Lord while he may be found;
    call upon him while he is near;
7 let the wicked forsake his way,
    and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him,
    and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

If you think you are a Jew, I would make darn sure I was before you put your whole salvation on being one. Mixed blood is NOT acceptable before God, and abandoning Moses Law including the sacrifices made for sin is punishable by death.

Do you believe in the G-d of Israel? If so, then why are you choosing to cherry-pick passages and verses to promote the false dogma that G-d abandoned us in favor of a spiritual nation? Can Jesus change the word of G-d?

Of course Jesus can't change the Word of God, that would be very unlike him, for he IS the Word of God

Romans 11:I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

(When Elijah pleaded with the Lord, and the Lord replied: “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Do you think they were Israelites? Read this further:)

.. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

The "elect" whom God has chosen when Elijah pleaded with God are those outside of Israel, to help bring Israel back to the fold. Read what Paul says in his letter to the Romans, it's not like that the "elect" have obtained what Israel failed to find! Same now, God has chosen for Himself some elect out of Gentiles, hoping to make the Jews jealous, and seek Him through their Messiah Jesus Christ, Gods only begotten son "Word".

Judaism - "So said Adonai, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name. If these laws depart from before Me, says Adonai, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time. So said Adonai: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says Adonai." (Jeremiah 31:34-36)

So, we've not just isolated 31:30, but seen the whole passage in full. Going by Christian logic, it is impossible to take G-d seriously, for He would have had to have lied to have rejected Israel for the spiritual Christian nation when He Himself made the standard that such a thing would never be possible until the foundations of the universe can be measured (which, I'll just add, we're far from doing!). That alone, puts to rest anything the Church as ever had to offer the Jewish nation. Remember, I didn't have to use a rabbinic interpretation here, just by looking at Scripture alone, will Christian dogma demolish at its feet.

Exactly, God will continue doing whatever He can to bring His People back to himself. But you better heed the call, because the end of all time has come nearer than ever before, and once that door, which is none other than Christ is closed, those left outside will remain in darkness, meaning in their sins, and you know what the punishment for sin is, right!? It's death, eternal punishment without God.

Judaism - You can never refute this. There was once a famous rabbi from the Talmud who said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that every time a Christian puts forth an argument, look at the verse/passage before or after it, and you can always refute him with ease.

Funny, those are my exact words: "Every time a Christian puts forth an argument, look at the verse/passage before or after it, and you can always refute him with ease." Only mine is their claim that God is plural or many, which they try to narrow down to three. Or when it comes to debunking all them other Christian denominations like JW's, 7DA, Mormons, Baptists etc.

But the Jews don't just worship Baal as their God, but deny Gods Messenger, their Messiah without even reading what he said!
Jews keep "listening" to Christians, who worship other gods too, at least three more than the Jews or the Muslims, and they base their entire rejection of Christ on them.

Judaism - Again, all we Jews have to do is brush aside you're isolated verses and look at the passage in full, because the answer to you people is always the next verse. . . and that's why Dr. Brown will never succeed in converting us, and neither will you.

Yes, Christians will always use isolated verses to prove their gods, but what Jews do is far worse. They don't just isolate verses, they have created millennia worth of heretical writings like the Kabballah, and COMPLETELY ignore the rest of Scripture, the NT which is the Grand-Finale, where God set a door, a gate before the Jews, which they completely ignore. I'm telling you STOP looking at and listening to Christians (RCC-Christians) or ANY of their denominations and start reading the New Testament for yourself and see if you can prove that it's teachings, it's Jewish based History, and the Messianic prophesies were lies or not?

Study THAT on top of your Kabballah, or other books like the Dead-sea Scrolls, and cross check that with the O.T. yourself. It's your duty, instead of reading all that other stuff, (like the Jews wanted me to do at two Synagogues to hopefully drive Jesus out of me; they took me inside a library, and pointed to an entire library of books there, wall to wall, top to bottom and told me I would have to read all those books before I could be considered a real Jew, .. lol You know what was even funnier? My wife had a Pilipino friend who was married to some rich Jew in Scottsdale AZ, and she said she went to that same two Synagogues, where she was asked to read through some pamphlets of Jewish history, took a test that she said was mostly common sense, and they inducted her into Judaism, .. lol. Of course, because the only thing she knew of Jesus Christ was that he was born on December 25, year 00, .. LOL! Which is about all most Jews are allowed to, or care to know of Jesus:

Judaism - Remember how we discovered that there is nothing in the verse or passage which mentions a covenant being established more than once, or at an earlier date? Remember how important it is to suggest correctly that Jesus could not have established a new covenant but failed to fulfill the prophecy in its fullest?

Not more than one, but A New Covenant:

Jerimiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [h]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their [i]hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Judaism - All of these arguments must be dealt with if we're going to even consider Jesus a candidate for the Jewish Messiah.

I agree! OK, so do you want to start with Mathew Chapter One, not through a Christian perspective (even though most of it they explain really good, except for the Trinity-gods) but from a Biblical "God is One, and there is no other gods besides Him" perspective!?

Judaism - But before I end with this, let’s take a moment to talk about seed. “Seed,” in Hebrew, is “zer’-ah.” There are plenty of verses all throughout the Hebrew Bible which make it all too clear that “zer’-ah” can only mean physical children, and not a spiritual body, as in the congregants of the Church. There is a Hebrew word for metaphoric/spiritual children, and it’s not “zer’-ah.” In fact, out of all 203 references, there is not one occasion where the Scriptures ever say that “zer’-ah” is spiritual. This knockout blow to the Church is staggering, and it has never recovered. Examples of verses pulled from Tanakh are Genesis 1:11. 3:15, 12:7, and 15:1-6

There is, however, a counter-argument to this. In Isaiah 57:4, Christians tells us that the “seed of falsehood” proves that “zer’-ah” can sometimes mean a spiritual seed. I’d be careful with this, and that is because in Hebrew, the adjective follows the noun, hence, it really should be flipped when rendered in English, and that comes out as “false seed.” In context, the passage is really telling us about children who’ve been corrupted to kill. Physical children. Hence, if we were to spin it the other way, can a concept such as falsehood have babies? Do you see how ridiculous it all sounds?

Yes, only I'm not aware of mentioning any "spiritual seed";

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Judaism - Evidence, do you know Hebrew? Probably not. It's no worth arguing against me than. You'll just lose every time.

I agree, if you speak Hebrew, I would loose every time. Thank God we have a lot of English Bible translations, so I don't have to depend on my Hebrew, because I have none.

Judaism - I have just one last counter-argument:

According to Christian teaching (we're talking 'eternal security' here, any Nazi, at the moment of death, can accept Jesus and be saved. . . but what about those poor 6 million who loved G-d with all their heart, who willingly sent themselves to the ovens to be slaughtered? They never heard of Jesus? Would the god of the New Testament dare be a monster and punish them for all time? Abraham said: "Will the Judge of the entire earth not perform justice!"

Yes, as you seen that God was just, .. Abraham asked from a hundred down to ten;

Genesis 18:31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

Now remember this included men, women and children, so looks like God did not see any of the children becoming just in the future, so there weren't even 10 righteous in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

God is just, and if you think Hitler or ANY of his henchmen, or even any Germans of that time who participated in these war crimes, or those who simply turned their heads would repent and accept Jesus Christ upon their deathbed, or before their execution, you don't know evil. Germany, along with their minion allies were in it to win it, even if they had to kill everyone on earth, every living human being, and if that meant killing all the animals too, so be it. Now if you think they would bow to a Jewish King like Jesus Christ, you're mistaken.

I looked Nazi evil in the face many times in my life, the most serene looking, polite and gentle blond nurses will kill you with a smile still on their faces, even if your wife was sitting right next to your bed in your recovery room.

Here is a good example what were dealing with when it comes to Religion. Just change the Leader of the cult from Do (Marshall Applewhite) to Hitler, and the 40 men and women to the entirety of Nazi Germany:

You noticed the joy, the absolute assuredness in their voices? You think if they had children that they would not have killed them too, or any elderly in their care? How about if they had the military might of Nazi Germany after if they would have conquered Russia and England too, you think they wouldn't kill everyone in the entire Europe along with them?
This is why Jesus warns us by stating that "the time is at hand, even at the door" because if we walk with him, the world hates us. And as it was in the Days of Noah, and Sodom and Gomorrah, so shall it be in the Day of the Son of Man, .. so unless you have made absolutely sure that Jesus was NOT the Jewish Messiah, the King of the Jews, the least you could do is read the New Testament yourself. But if your God would get angry with you for doing so, then hey, you wouldn't want to offend your God, right?

Judaism - These are some mighty questions for Christians, ones you should think about. After all, eternity is at stake.

Yes, but not just Christians, but Jews. Because it was the Jews for whom the Messiah came to save, the rest of the world was supposed to have been saved by the Jews as it was written. But it sure don't look like that's ever going to happen does it? I guess it will have to be up to that "remnant" that God set aside.

Judaism · June 2018

@Evidence

Even I don't write that long! I'll answer it all later. Thanks though.

Erfisflat · June 2018

You know what's funny? How atheists don't believe what people from 2,000 years ago said happened 2,000 years ago, but they'll believe what people say happened 4 billion years ago in 2018.

PyromanGaming · June 2018

@Erfisflat:

My question is how is that not towering? Go from 0:00 to 0:15 and you will see that there are some buildings that weren't there before and the buildings that were already there are shown. This is also an example of a superior mirage just for clarity. Also, I don't think that this is evidence for god. Everyone in the past believed that the earth was flat, mostly not because of religious reasons but because of observation. If I am shown that the earth is flat, this might point to god, but it doesn't prove god. We can talk about that when we get there.

I will admit that the moon argument isn't relevant anymore. Yes, the earth couldn't have been the cause for it, but if you are right, our perception on space, time, and gravity could be completely different, thus making the shadow potentially possible. Let's just stick to the observations of the earth for now. Like you said, we can get to space later.

Now about the claim you just made about the irony of atheists. I can't speak for all, but I can speak for myself. One of the problems I have with religions is that they are so successful because they can claim that miracles happen in the times that people believe in magic, but once people started believing less in magic (about 500-300 years ago) the stories fade away more and more. It looks as if someone was observing how gullible people are and changing their ways of indoctrination based on that group. When we look at the reliability of stories in the past, we try to look at different accounts of people who wrote these stories. For example, in Abraham Lincoln's assassination, we can see newspapers talking about his assassination, we see different accounts of people who saw it themselves, and we even found the gun that killed Abraham. What do we get with the Bible/Torah/Quran? We get what looks to be fairy tales written by people often many decades after the stories happened. Nothing can be proven. This is a clip from a show that I like that shows what I'm talking about:

What do we get with that I think you're referencing the creation of the earth? We get a unanimous agreement among people who specialize in astronomy and paleontology that the earth was created as it is and it explains everything that we could ask for in a theory, such as the creation of the moon.

Erfisflat · June 2018

@PyromanGaming
"My question is how is that not towering? Go from 0:00 to 0:15 and you will see that there are some buildings that weren't there before and the buildings that were already there are shown."

Granted, you will have a bit of refraction from the sheer amount of moisture over this distance in the air, but to assume that refraction causes terrestrial objects to be lifted thousands of feet backwards up over assumed curvature is an ad hoc assumption. The actual direction of refraction can be tested with scientific experimentation, and all results say the image is to be refracted downward, causing the image to appear lower, or below the horizon. The experiments are easy to reproduce and work on any scale.

"This is also an example of a superior mirage just for clarity. "

Where? Here?

These are superior mirages, as was already explained, a copy of the object is mirrored above the original, nothing is mirrored about the image of Chicago.

Here is another carefully constructed experiment.

As I said, there are plenty if you don't trust the Chicago test.

"Also, I don't think that this is evidence for god."

It certainly doesn't support the current "scientific status quo". It thoroughly destroys the big bang, and with it, evolution. Leaving us with one creation story left, and all signs point to God, whether anyone would like to admit it or not.

"I will admit that the moon argument isn't relevant anymore. Yes, the earth couldn't have been the cause for it, but if you are right, our perception on space, time, and gravity could be completely different, thus making the shadow potentially possible. Let's just stick to the observations of the earth for now. Like you said, we can get to space later."

So this is a concession, correct? Eclipses, or shadows on the moon, or anything related to the moon is dismissed. Do you have any other good reason to believe in the spinning ball?

"One of the problems I have with religions is that they are so successful because they can claim that miracles happen in the times that people believe in magic, but once people started believing less in magic (about 500-300 years ago) the stories fade away more and more."

To my knowledge, about 3-500 years ago is about the time that people started believing in the globe earth theory, which would require "magic" to work.

According to the laws of physics, every action must have an equal and opposite reaction, yet the motion of the earth is about 800 miles per second in several directions simultaneously, and not one person has experimentally measured this motion(s), meaning the is no equal and opposite reaction. Sorta like magic.

"We get a unanimous agreement among people who specialize in astronomy and paleontology that the earth was created as it is and it explains everything that we could ask for in a theory, such as the creation of the moon."

This is a broad assumption, to support this statement, one would out of necessity, show that every person who specializes in astronomy and paleontology agrees with the current models. This would be impossible.

Evidence · June 2018

Judaism said:

@Evidence

Even I don't write that long! I'll answer it all later. Thanks though.

@Judaism ;
No problem, I just wanted to make sure I answered all your questions and commented on all your confusions. Take your time, .. matter of fact, why don't you go on Bible Gateway,

https://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/

Now on top click on 'BIBLE'

in the pull-down menu choose 'Audio Bibles'

then choose what language, or what English Version you want it read in, then choose who you want reading it for you and kick back, and absorb.

Try to remove any "Christian or Kabalistic" teaching from your mind, and listen to those words with all your heart, soul and mind, .. not through the eyes of all the indoctrinations we've been bombarded with for thousands of years!?

May the Lord bless you, and open your mind/spirits eyes, then we can discuss where you find that the N.T. is made up lies by those supposedly corrupt, Jewish sheepherders and fisherman who created a story of a fake Messiah!?

Evidence · June 2018

@PyromanGaming ;

Yes, just like:

Steven Universe: Renaldo and the Truth

This is exactly what Religion teaches. I can take you (or anyone here) to at least three "Christian Debating" sights and show you how when I start pointing out the truth about Religious claims, they Warn me, and then Ban me. I have been Banned from about 3 of them so far for going against Christian Doctrines and insisting on the Truth.
yet here is what the Bible says about truth, which is what we are to put our "faith" in. Not unsubstantiated, unproven Religious doctrines, but in the Truth!

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

substance - Merriam - Webster

1 a : essential nature : essence

b : a fundamental or characteristic part or quality

c Christian Science : god 1b

2 a : ultimate reality that underlies all outward manifestations and change

b : practical importance : meaning, usefulness

the … bill—which will be without substance in the sense that it will authorize nothing more than a set of ideas
—Richard Reeves

3 a : physical material from which something is made or which has discrete existence

b : matter of particular or definite chemical constitution

In other words, if we don't have any evidence with substance, don't go believing it.

Like this:

LOL

poco · June 2018

Hopefully you won't mind if I butt in here. It seems as tho, you guys have a great discussion going on. Very Cool. @Evidence I want to respond to what you said and ask a few questions. I first want to talk about the idea of an infinite god. Infinity cannot exist because it is mathematically incoherent.So let's look at some basic addition and subtraction first:1 + 1 - 1 = 11 - 1 + 1 = 1In both cases I used different orders to complete the equation and both of which resulted in 1. We can do this with any set of numbers. Here is another example:2 + 4 - 3 = 34 - 3 + 2 = 3This is a basic law of addition. You can rearrange the numbers as long as you don't change the operations attached to them, like you cannot modify the phrase " - 4" But let's see what happens when we use infinity in these equations. We will be using the letter "I" for infinity here.I + 1 - I = 0Infinity plus one is still infinity, and then minus itself equals 0. But then:I - I + 1 = 1Infinity minus infinity is 0, and then plus 1 is 1. Infinity breaks this law of addition I mentioned, so it cannot exist. But let's say that god is a very high number, so very powerful. My question is how do you get to the conclusion that infinity is conscious?So my next problem is what evidence do you have for all of these claims? Is it the bible? Because I can give you an example in which the bible was wrong, so how would the bible be credible? If there is one incorrect piece of information in the bible, then there couldn't be an infallible creator to write the bible. So in this case, the christian god couldn't exist.Problem with stating things are wrong with the bible re facts, may be that the ancient Hebrew language consisted of only 8500 or so words. It's up to the interpreters to come up with the best way to explain what the ancients were attempting to say. The bible was inspired by God, not dictated, so depending on the author, their audience, their political flavor etc, ...... all that influenced how & what they wrote. I imagine they tried their best to say what God wanted them to, but they were for the most part, not the most studied people with regards of later authors/historians as we know. the message was more important than being precise re some incidentals they may have gotten wrong. As far a credibility goes, as stated b4, the authors' job was to relay what was important in God's view, not where a city was exactly, if you catch my drift. & God's message was re His plan & our spiritual life.Let's look at the idea of creationism, which talks about how every living thing in the world was created exactly as it is, never evolving or changing over time. But this is blatantly wrong if you look at Darwinian evolution. Let's look at the evolution of humans:We have found skulls of apes changing into us over millions of years. We have even seen evolution for ourselves. Take a look at the peppered moth, a white moth with black spots. This coloring helped it to camouflage. But in the industrial revolution for about 20 years, there was so much pollution that the trees were covered with soot. The moths turned black, but then when people stopped polluting the air so much, the soot cleared away and the moths turned back to normal.We have even seen some evidence pointing away from the idea of creationist intelligent design. For example, let's look at the appendix, a tiny organ on the side of the colon that serves no major purpose. It ruptures in so many people's bodies, it even ruptured in my mother's. Why would an intelligent creator add that to our bodies? And there are many other examples.My question to you is, why could God not have used evolution to get mankind to a certain ...... maturity so-to-speak? He then may have infused man with a soul to make him special & in His image. Would the ancient authors want to write about something they could not possibly fathom? I think God's inspired words were delivered with relation to the times, & literal comprehension. There is nothing in the OT to say otherwise. An Adam & Eve is certainly something they could have understood. the message for that entire story was how sin/evil entered this world, & how serious God treated sin. If you'd notice, Jesus, being God & was around as long as ..... forever so states the bible & that's what were using as a reference here, His main teaching method was parables/stories that told His message, altho not necessarily true historically. They told us what His message was in ambiguous form so the listener would have to investigate/discuss what was said in order to understand Jesus' point. Jesus explains this in Matthew 13, using parables with why He used that method. So, since Jesus was around during the OT as God, the inspired word certainly would have had hidden messages, allegory/metaphors for the same reason He used them during His time on earth. Why change the MO of God getting the message out, right?Again, the bible because of this is fallible. So, if you're going to call the bible fallible bc of our appendix, I'd have to ask you why? Does the bible give an exact age of earth or humans ...... & how they really got to the point of being human? I am not saying that the bible's version of Adam is absolutely wrong, knowing God's power & all, but I think God could have used evolution with us also. Would the ancient listener to the biblical stories comprehend evolution, & the 13 billion yer old universe? Nah. The bible relates a central message for our spiritual health, not necessarily geographic & other types of errors that have nothing to do with God's plan for humanity.So I looked into some of your ideas in the debate "is space real?" and I have a question. Can you show me that NASA is wrong about everything because I think that if the government is spending so much money on this, and if no one in half a century in the government has gone out and supported you claim it is most probably wrong.I apologize I haven't gotten the time to watch the video you posted but I will when I get the chance. Also, can you tell me more about the idea of flat earth, mud fossils, and giants? And finally, the idea of god being space intrigues me. Could you show me some websites/videos/books that could help me learn this? That would be great.I want to thank you for having this discussion and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the information I brought up because I think this is going to be a very interesting discussion.PyromanGaming @Evidence @PyromanGaming @PyromanGaming

poco · June 2018

Hopefully you won't mind if I butt in here. It seems as tho, you guys have a great discussion going on. Very Cool.

@Evidence I want to respond to what you said and ask a few questions. I first want to talk about the idea of an infinite god. Infinity cannot exist because it is mathematically incoherent.

So let's look at some basic addition and subtraction first:

1 + 1 - 1 = 1

1 - 1 + 1 = 1

In both cases I used different orders to complete the equation and both of which resulted in 1. We can do this with any set of numbers. Here is another example:

2 + 4 - 3 = 3

4 - 3 + 2 = 3

This is a basic law of addition. You can rearrange the numbers as long as you don't change the operations attached to them, like you cannot modify the phrase " - 4" But let's see what happens when we use infinity in these equations. We will be using the letter "I" for infinity here.

I + 1 - I = 0

Infinity plus one is still infinity, and then minus itself equals 0. But then:

I - I + 1 = 1

Infinity minus infinity is 0, and then plus 1 is 1. Infinity breaks this law of addition I mentioned, so it cannot exist. But let's say that god is a very high number, so very powerful. My question is how do you get to the conclusion that infinity is conscious?

So my next problem is what evidence do you have for all of these claims? Is it the bible? Because I can give you an example in which the bible was wrong, so how would the bible be credible? If there is one incorrect piece of information in the bible, then there couldn't be an infallible creator to write the bible. So in this case, the christian god couldn't exist.

Problem with stating things are wrong with the bible re facts, may be that the ancient Hebrew language consisted of only 8500 or so words. It's up to the interpreters to come up with the best way to explain what the ancients were attempting to say.

The bible was inspired by God, not dictated, so depending on the author, their audience, their political flavor etc, ...... all that influenced how & what they wrote. I imagine they tried their best to say what God wanted them to, but they were for the most part, not the most studied people with regards of later authors/historians as we know. the message was more important than being precise re some incidentals they may have gotten wrong. As far a credibility goes, as stated b4, the authors' job was to relay what was important in God's view, not where a city was exactly, if you catch my drift. & God's message was re His plan & our spiritual life.

Let's look at the idea of creationism, which talks about how every living thing in the world was created exactly as it is, never evolving or changing over time. But this is blatantly wrong if you look at Darwinian evolution. Let's look at the evolution of humans:

Image result for human evolution chart

We have found skulls of apes changing into us over millions of years. We have even seen evolution for ourselves. Take a look at the peppered moth, a white moth with black spots. This coloring helped it to camouflage. But in the industrial revolution for about 20 years, there was so much pollution that the trees were covered with soot. The moths turned black, but then when people stopped polluting the air so much, the soot cleared away and the moths turned back to normal.

We have even seen some evidence pointing away from the idea of creationist intelligent design. For example, let's look at the appendix, a tiny organ on the side of the colon that serves no major purpose. It ruptures in so many people's bodies, it even ruptured in my mother's. Why would an intelligent creator add that to our bodies? And there are many other examples.

My question to you is, why could God not have used evolution to get mankind to a certain ...... maturity so-to-speak? He then may have infused man with a soul to make him special & in His image. Would the ancient authors want to write about something they could not possibly fathom?

I think God's inspired words were delivered with relation to the times, & literal comprehension. There is nothing in the OT to say otherwise. An Adam & Eve is certainly something they could have understood. the message for that entire story was how sin/evil entered this world, & how serious God treated sin.

If you'd notice, Jesus, being God & was around as long as ..... forever so states the bible & that's what were using as a reference here, His main teaching method was parables/stories that told His message, altho not necessarily true historically. They told us what His message was in ambiguous form so the listener would have to investigate/discuss what was said in order to understand Jesus' point. Jesus explains this in Matthew 13, using parables with why He used that method.

So, since Jesus was around during the OT as God, the inspired word certainly would have had hidden messages, allegory/metaphors for the same reason He used them during His time on earth. Why change the MO of God getting the message out, right?

Again, the bible because of this is fallible.

So, if you're going to call the bible fallible bc of our appendix, I'd have to ask you why? Does the bible give an exact age of earth or humans ...... & how they really got to the point of being human? I am not saying that the bible's version of Adam is absolutely wrong, knowing God's power & all, but I think God could have used evolution with us also. Would the ancient listener to the biblical stories comprehend evolution, & the 13 billion yer old universe? Nah.

The bible relates a central message for our spiritual health, not necessarily geographic & other types of errors that have nothing to do with God's plan for humanity.

So I looked into some of your ideas in the debate "is space real?" and I have a question. Can you show me that NASA is wrong about everything because I think that if the government is spending so much money on this, and if no one in half a century in the government has gone out and supported you claim it is most probably wrong.

I apologize I haven't gotten the time to watch the video you posted but I will when I get the chance. Also, can you tell me more about the idea of flat earth, mud fossils, and giants? And finally, the idea of god being space intrigues me. Could you show me some websites/videos/books that could help me learn this? That would be great.

I want to thank you for having this discussion and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the information I brought up because I think this is going to be a very interesting discussion.

Erfisflat · June 2018

Evidence said:

@PyromanGaming ;

Yes, just like:

Steven Universe: Renaldo and the Truth

This is exactly what Religion teaches. I can take you (or anyone here) to at least three "Christian Debating" sights and show you how when I start pointing out the truth about Religious claims, they Warn me, and then Ban me. I have been Banned from about 3 of them so far for going against Christian Doctrines and insisting on the Truth.
yet here is what the Bible says about truth, which is what we are to put our "faith" in. Not unsubstantiated, unproven Religious doctrines, but in the Truth!

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

substance - Merriam - Webster
1 a : essential nature : essence

b : a fundamental or characteristic part or quality

c Christian Science : god 1b

2 a : ultimate reality that underlies all outward manifestations and change

b : practical importance : meaning, usefulness
the … bill—which will be without substance in the sense that it will authorize nothing more than a set of ideas
—Richard Reeves

3 a : physical material from which something is made or which has discrete existence

b : matter of particular or definite chemical constitution

In other words, if we don't have any evidence with substance, don't go believing it.

Like this:

LOL

Lmao, a great demonstration of a problem with the model. The moon is riddled with craters. At 1:49 the current craters begin to form. This side is always facing the earth.

First problem is that the earth and it's gravity should have been in the path of the meteors, and received the majority of the blast, at least when the earth was leading the moon in it's path.

When the moon is leading the earth in it's path, it would obviously receive equal (or more, since nothing is in the way) amounts of cratering on the alleged "dark side" of the moon. Of course, we never see the dark side of the moon, but NASA claims they have, and they give us this monstrosity as "proof".

If anyone actually thinks these are real photographs, let me know, we need to have a talk. There are at least two very obvious problems with this, not to mention the point above, for a total of 4+ problems with the heliocentric religion.

Agility_Dude · June 2018

@ErfIsFlat this is PyromanGaming I will be using this account from now on my previous account logged out and I couldn't find the password for it. So onto the rebuttal.

"Granted, you will have a bit of refraction from the sheer amount of moisture over this distance in the air, but to assume that refraction causes terrestrial objects to be lifted thousands of feet backwards up over assumed curvature is an ad hoc assumption."

There wouldn't be enough to distort the image this much. When you look in the first video you see how when the glass of water is moved it distorts the image that this is covering. This is because there is so much of the medium (water) between the object and the viewer that the image would be distorted. In the case of the lake you can't see any of the moisture anywhere so it wouldn't distort your vision.

So let's look at the experiment that you showed. I did the calculations myself, and I concede. The earth is either flat or is different from what NASA is saying. I'm still trying to process what has happened. This does destroy the big bang, but not evolution. I might be wrong, maybe you could elaborate on why you think it does.

"One of the problems I have with religions is that they are so successful because they can claim that miracles happen in the times that people believe in magic, but once people started believing less in magic (about 500-300 years ago) the stories fade away more and more."

"To my knowledge, about 3-500 years ago is about the time that people started believing in the globe earth theory, which would require "magic" to work."

I don't think that the reason why round earth theory was accepted was because of magic. It is likely due to first an explanation for the shape of the moon and then incorrect equations were made. Not really magic but need for closure and incompetence. This still doesn't erase what I was trying to say however, which was that I think that the religious institution were carefully planned and observant of how gullible their population was so that they could create new stories and modify stories accordingly.

Now the question is how do we explain the rest of the phenomenons in the universe, because we cannot base them on very much anymore.

Thank you for your insight on this idea.

@Evidence:

I do agree that the bible has some amazing philosophical ideas in it. I used to believe in that theory of how the moon was formed, but now I have realized that because flat earth theory is most likely correct, and now I believe it to be, that the moon must have been formed another way.

@Poco:

I don't mind you butting in. Thank you for joining.

"Problem with stating things are wrong with the bible re facts, may be that the ancient Hebrew language consisted of only 8500 or so words. It's up to the interpreters to come up with the best way to explain what the ancients were attempting to say."

So you would have to admit that Christianity as we know it would be incorrect if I can find one flaw with it? You would have to give up your entire Christian ideology because you would never know what is correct vs incorrect. There would be so many variations on interpretations of the bible, kind of like what is happening currently with all the splits but 100 times more. We aren't much different. We both must deny many of the interpretations of the bible being true. I just go one step further and deny yours. Your belief doesn't have to be in line with anyone else's for you to have this discussion with me. Just let me know if you have a modified christian belief so that we can be on the same page. However, the burden of proof is on you to prove that god exists, and that is why I have this discussion. I think that the absence of worshiping any of the gods would be more beneficial to me rather than worshiping one god because I believe that it is more likely that a god that would send me to heaven would be very unlikely, especially among all of the other ideas that I could have of gods. So I choose to live the atheist life. I do not think that gods such as the Christian god would be possible in this world, but I do think that a god of some kind is possible.

If you are going to make the proposition that the interpreters could have misinterpreted the bible, you need to explain how it actually should be interpreted so that we can have a rational conversation.

"The bible was inspired by God, not dictated, so depending on the author, their audience, their political flavor etc, ...... all that influenced how & what they wrote. I imagine they tried their best to say what God wanted them to, but they were for the most part, not the most studied people with regards of later authors/historians as we know. the message was more important than being precise re some incidentals they may have gotten wrong. As far a credibility goes, as stated b4, the authors' job was to relay what was important in God's view, not where a city was exactly, if you catch my drift. & God's message was re His plan & our spiritual life."

However, god would have told the authors exactly what to write, so there would be no confusion. In the same way that god told Noah in the story of Noah's ark exactly what to do before the flood happened to help god out.

"My question to you is, why could God not have used evolution to get mankind to a certain ...... maturity so-to-speak? He then may have infused man with a soul to make him special & in His image. Would the ancient authors want to write about something they could not possibly fathom?

Why would you assume that humans are special as opposed to other animals? Chimpanzees are very intelligent. There is evidence that our ancestors had languages as well. What differentiates us from any animals?

"I think God's inspired words were delivered with relation to the times, & literal comprehension. There is nothing in the OT to say otherwise. An Adam & Eve is certainly something they could have understood. the message for that entire story was how sin/evil entered this world, & how serious God treated sin."

Okay, so now I understand your position that you take the bible literally. So you'e a catholic I assume? I disagree with the idea of sin actually because I believe in evolution. It's a coherent idea and let me explain how. For a species to evolve anything that would be a detriment to said species has to go away and anything beneficial that appears has to stay. This applies to humans. Why would we have empathy which is the basis for all morality? Because as a social self-interested individual it is in my best interest to be "kind" to others as they will likely be kind back. It explains every moral situation. I don't believe in objective morality I actually believe in objective practicality because there are things that are going to be most beneficial to you. This isn't morality in any way because morality is on the basis of what is "good" or "bad" while my theory is on the basis of what is "practical" vs "impractical". And this is why "sin" as religious people understand it cannot exist.

"If you'd notice, Jesus, being God & was around as long as ..... forever so states the bible & that's what were using as a reference here, His main teaching method was parables/stories that told His message, altho not necessarily true historically. They told us what His message was in ambiguous form so the listener would have to investigate/discuss what was said in order to understand Jesus' point. Jesus explains this in Matthew 13, using parables with why He used that method.

So, since Jesus was around during the OT as God, the inspired word certainly would have had hidden messages, allegory/metaphors for the same reason He used them during His time on earth. Why change the MO of God getting the message out, right?

Again, the bible because of this is fallible."

Did Jesus even exist? I have seen no records of his existence in any way other than in religious texts. You admit that the bible is fallible. I'm once again confused on your beliefs on all of this which is very important if we want to have a discussion on this topic. Could you explain your beliefs on everything mentioned here and everything that we might bring up in advance? I had this same problem with @Evidence earlier in the debate. How do we separate what is correct vs incorrect in the bible?

"So, if you're going to call the bible fallible bc of our appendix, I'd have to ask you why? Does the bible give an exact age of earth or humans ...... & how they really got to the point of being human? I am not saying that the bible's version of Adam is absolutely wrong, knowing God's power & all, but I think God could have used evolution with us also. Would the ancient listener to the biblical stories comprehend evolution, & the 13 billion yer old universe? Nah.

The bible relates a central message for our spiritual health, not necessarily geographic & other types of errors that have nothing to do with God's plan for humanity."

I call the bible fallible because he advocates the golden rule while at the same time hypocritically doing the opposite with the appendix. And he's supposed to be loving. I't clear that you don't believe entirely in the story of Adam and Eve shown in the Bible because it says that Adam was made out of dust and that Eve was made from a rib pulled out of Adam. It actually makes me shiver thinking about it. I'm trying to imagine watching god create Eve it makes me sick to my stomach. The listener could have comprehended evolution if they were told about it, but they wouldn't have known otherwise because there was no mention of it in the bible. You talk about how the bible has a message for our spiritual health, but how do we know that message is correct? Again we have to differentiate between what is correct and what is incorrect if we are going to have this discussion.

Once again thank you for joining @Poco and welcome to our debate.

Erfisflat · June 2018

"There wouldn't be enough to distort the image this much. When you look in the first video you see how when the glass of water is moved it distorts the image that this is covering. This is because there is so much of the medium (water) between the object and the viewer that the image would be distorted. In the case of the lake you can't see any of the moisture anywhere so it wouldn't distort your vision."

You can't really see the moisture in the air, you can only see it's effects on light aka refraction. This is about 60 miles of air with vast amount of water, due to evaporation, etc.

"So let's look at the experiment that you showed. I did the calculations myself, and I concede. The earth is either flat or is different from what NASA is saying."

This is just the entrance to the rabbit hole! There is a great awakening happening right now!

"I'm still trying to process what has happened. This does destroy the big bang, but not evolution. I might be wrong, maybe you could elaborate on why you think it does."

Well, evolution stems from the big bang theory, initially. Of course you will have the few obscure opinions that God created a speck on the earth and it evolved into what we see today, but when we examine the claims, just as we have with the spherical earth, you will find more misconceptions and or lies. This is something you have to research. If evolution is true, and the earth is flat, where do we come in? What alternative flat earth creation story could there be? How about looking at the stories, and comparing them with reality. Start with Genesis

Genesis 1:6–8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

"Now the question is how do we explain the rest of the phenomenons in the universe, because we cannot base them on very much anymore."

Well, since were clear and agree what shape the earth is now, we can discuss "space". Have you ever heard of the firmament?

@Agility_Dude
I try to keep up with anyone that is competent enough to see the truth, what is your age?

Agility_Dude · July 2018

@Erfisflat:

Now I'm really confused. After thinking about the implications of the flat earth idea, I now am wondering where the sun plays into this. When we look into sunsets we see that they vanish into the horizion, such as this:

How would this be explained through flat earth theory? I'm not sure what to believe now.

"Well, evolution stems from the big bang theory, initially. Of course you will have the few obscure opinions that God created a speck on the earth and it evolved into what we see today, but when we examine the claims, just as we have with the spherical earth, you will find more misconceptions and or lies. This is something you have to research. If evolution is true, and the earth is flat, where do we come in? What alternative flat earth creation story could there be? How about looking at the stories, and comparing them with reality. Start with Genesis

Genesis 1:6–8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day."

Traditionally evolution does stem from the big bang theory but the idea behind natural selection can still exist without the big bang. The formation of life remains a mystery, and I think that scientist's need for closure has gotten the best of them, so I'm not sure what the creation story is. As for heaven, I have never seen anything in the sky that could look like heaven. Is heaven what most consider stars in the sky?

"I try to keep up with anyone that is competent enough to see the truth, what is your age?"

I am 13, turning 14 in August.

Judaism · July 2018

@Evidence

Thank you for your response. I do recall now that you're a "follower of the way," I guess the difference between that and what's normally labeled as 'Christianity' is the Pope and trinity. I'll do my best to respect that, and if I go off on the wrong path, please correct me.

I'll start with our divide on sin. In my tradition, man isn't inherently evil, all I need to do to prove this is point you to a short verse in Genesis 4:7.

"Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."

Based off this verse, man is not evil from his conception, at least in the Creator's eye. That puts the fire alarm on New Testament doctrines, wouldn't you say?

Again, the shedding of blood was only used for unintentional sins. Therefore, you should believe that Jesus died for your "unintentional sins," because that's the only time a sacrifice was offered.

You also misrepresent both the Kabbalah and Star of David, the star was on his shield, its six-pointed, the pentagram is five, a big difference if you ask me.

You then cite me a passage from 2 Corinthians. Bold move. But it won't help you're case, because I can counter it. From the prophet Isaiah, 45:19, we discover whether or not G-d would ever "veil" His children:

לֹ֧א בַסֵּ֣תֶר דִּבַּ֗רְתִּי בִּמְקוֹם֙ אֶ֣רֶץ חֹ֔שֶׁךְ לֹ֥א

אָמַ֛רְתִּי לְזֶ֥רַע יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב תֹּ֣הוּ בַקְּשׁ֑וּנִי אֲנִ֚י יְהֹוָה֙
:דֹּבֵ֣ר צֶ֔דֶק מַגִּ֖יד מֵֽישָׁרִֽים

You see, followers of Jesus have a problem, their problem is that they don't understand what a brit is. A brit is an oath. Can G-d go back on His oaths? No. Can we? That depends, though we're not suppose to. What's the cut of the brit? The Brit milah (circumcision of the flesh). That was the seal for all eternity. When talking about the covenant, we usually refer to the one with Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov. That's the one, not Solomon or whatnot, and those passages I've shown only prove my point, so far, you've been silent on them, they stand correct, they have not been adequately refuted, and I don't think its possible. Now, I'll cite to you one of many passages which clearly prove the Jewish position:

"So said Adonai, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, HaShem of Hosts is His name. If these laws depart from before Me, says Adonai, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time. So said Adonai: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the G-d of Israel." (Jeremiah 31:34-36)

Evidence, you seem to believe in the Bible, right? Well, is G-d a liar? Because He is if you choose to believe in Jesus, because it is obvious to any person that none of this has yet happened, therefore, G-d hasn't rejected us as a people yet, which explains how He preserved us so well over the centuries against all odds. The reason we were chosen was to be a light to the nations (Isaiah 49:6). You're right, being chosen doesn't mean you're saved, but, like Genesis 4:7, we can work on it.

Let's now study Jeremiah's prophecy, because it has nothing to do with Jesus, but with our breaking of the brit - even though G-d will always forgive us as a father chastise his son, so that we can learn a few lessons from our exile. The problem with you is that you read "Jesus" into everything, if Jeremiah had no problem communicating about Jesus, wouldn't it make more sense just to call him out by name? I mean, he could have wrote, "Hey guys, you'll get a new covenant and all laws with be abolished when the Messiah comes. Oh! And did I forget to mention that his name will be Jesus?" But he didn't write that. He was quite, why? Does G-d want Jews and Christians to fret all the time? Jeremiah was clear about the new brit, I don't know why you think its strange, we'd have the same Torah, the same laws, what's strange with that? You say that its unreasonable for G-d to keep forgiving Israel. . . well, it happened. And it will, again and again, until we finally do it right.

You further wrote:"Your Kabbalah explains that it was Gods fault all along. . . that He just didn't understand His own prophesies." I'm sorry, but do you have a source for this? You claim that the rabbis "put everything into perspective," again, a source?

You then put up a link covering all 353 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, the problem is, of course, is that we too have a link with all 353 answered. Here! Take a look:

https://judaismresources.net/of-whom-speaketh-the-prophet/

I;m sorry, but I won't acknowledge you're claim that we don't worship the G-d of Israel, if you think that's the case, I can't help you. You then say that I rely on a bunch of commentaries, I do, because I trust these rabbis were doing their best, but all I ever quoted to you so far, to my memory, was Scripture. You say you can't read or speak in Hebrew - but that's the point, my friend. There is no "better" translation in any language than the original. To know the Bible, one must be required to learn Hebrew. After all, you just admitted, "I agree, if you speak Hebrew, I would loose every time." Yes, you will. Just look at Isaiah 7:14, they say its a virgin, but they don't know the Hebrew, because its really “ha’almah” (הָעַלְמָה)!

But if you really want the best translation out there, I recommend this source from Chabad:

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

Just remember what my rabbi taught me about the importance of Hebrew, after all, it is nearly impossible to replicate the grammar structure of Hebrew to English, or any language, meaning, one will produce an entirely different translation than the original. For example, a translation may use many words to describe just one word, or vice-versa; as well as delete and add words to understand a concept. Also, any given word in Hebrew can have many meanings when based on context alone, hence, the impossibility.

Shalom (peace),

P.S. If you're a "follower of the way," where's your organization? Where do you get your funds from? How many congregants believe in this, or are you only the beginning? I'd like to know where I can further find information on this new sect because I've never heard it before. Thank you.

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